Starting gear

[Torn]

exp(x) said:

Unfortunately many of us here have a warped sense of difficulty from playing the game for so long. I think modifying the default start weapons is the best solution, but I have no idea what would be ideal.

I think exp have a point here. But however iphone would be a new experience as you need to play it on iphone. It is like back when you played Doom first time and you used the arrow keys. (No I haven't tried that many of the konsole dooms). Maybe you should make an option, so players can choose if they want the "handicap" settings or they want the normal game setup with a pistol with 50 bullets.

[zombiefxck]

I am mostly opposed to the idea unless it were controlled by the difficulty level.
If this is going to be put in the game, can you leave UV alone? This way we can still have a bit of the old ultra-violence.

[eargosedown]

Really it depends on how the controls handle on the Iphone.
If they're clumsy, it may be worth giving weapon changes. If you're having port limitations (Such as with SNES version, where monsters are always facing you, making hitscanners epic) it would probably be a good idea too.

Also, you post here? O.O

[Naked Snake]

I like the idea but I think it should be kept as simple as possible. On skills 1-3, if you die, you should have the option to "Restart with pistol" or "Start with extra gear". It should then proceed to give you a chainsaw, shotgun and chaingun with almost full ammunition (only on E#M8s would you get a RL or in Doom II, any level above Dead Simple). You should also spawn with blue armor but set at 100% durability. Perhaps the extra gear option should also bestow the full automap (including secrets) so that a novice player can have access to the full layout to better plan their route or remember where stuff like health and armor can be found.

EDIT : to simplify the dialogue on death, it should merely prompt you : "Need some help?" and you can answer yes or no.

[Gez]

Starting with a chainsaw would make the chainsaw pickups stupid.

[Naked Snake]

Gez said:

Starting with a chainsaw would make the chainsaw pickups stupid.

What if the player doesn't know where to find the chainsaw or dies trying to get it? Note that you are not required to start with it either, it's an option ;-P

[Ledmeister]

John Carmack said:

Does anyone hate the idea?

This may be fighting the inevitable here, but if the idea is to allow new single-player games to be started on any map, I’d counsel against it.
I think that having all of the individual maps available immediately will make the single-player Doom experience a little too casual, reducing the player’s level of commitment to something like that needed for a round of Sudoku, or a hand of solitaire, or some other idle time-filler for a 20 minute bus commute.
Maybe that’s exactly what mobile Dooming needs, but I wonder. I think single-player might be better, and ultimately more rewarding, if it’s kept as the original journey in Episode form.

If the concern is to keep the game manageable in short, erratic time frames, I would think that that’s already handled by the original ability to save, load, and pause gameplay at any time. Is this something that can’t be done in the iPhone version? Could one corner of the screen be reserved as a virtual (unseen or lightly-translucent) Pause button which brings up a menu of options? Resume, save, load or quit, from there.
(In the interest of full disclosure, I haven’t even touched an iPhone yet. I’m waiting for this game’s release before buying phones in order to playtest for the Doom comparison guide. My comments here are only based on my experience with the classic games on PC and the other platforms.)

If maps must be random-access for new single-player games, then how about using the old JagDoom method where the player is allowed to start on any map, so long as the player beat that map once before. That would at least require the player to Old-School it at least one time through the game.
Or, include an idclev cheat code equivalent?

And as far as the weapon/ammo loadouts go, again my humble vote would be to leave them alone. A generation of Doomers fought its way through these maps with weapons and ammo as-is, and generally had a blast. Keep that tradition. (Well, E4M1 might be too harsh… It might be worth rethinking the ordnance availability there, to save a few phones from being thrown against the wall. ;-)

If changing the original starting balance of a map is mandatory, then what about placing an Invulnerability Sphere near the player’s starting point. Don’t force the player to pick it up, but have it right there as an easy option. Step on it, and you’ve now got 30 seconds to try to get the upper hand. Gather ordnance, or scout around, or start some monster-infighting, whatever. I think one universal edit like this will be easier than trying to adjust (then likely re-adjust) weapons and ammo in a different way for every individual map or map group.

But again, does Doom really need changes to map access and starting status, even on a mobile platform?
I’d think that the game’s controls will need to be the top priority. (An example of what to avoid can be found in Doom II for Tapwave Zodiac. IMHO the poor controls destroyed an otherwise good mobile port.) If there’s a masterful solution to the control challenge, then I believe the original game can pretty much stand on its own.

What would really be a welcome change in any new classic Doom/Doom II port, is the correction of some old bugs that spoil or detract from gameplay, such as places where players or monsters can be trapped, where secret areas are inaccessible, etc. (Laundry list available on request, but I’m sure id’s well aware by now. ;-)
Speaking of old bugs that could use fixing, an off-topic note: If id has any pull with Team Xbox, the 2006 XBLA Doom game still needs a patch to prevent a player’s 360 from freezing solid when not connected to the service. XBLA Doom is the best overall commercial console port of the PC game to-date, but that’s a very nasty problem, with what should be a trivial error-trapping solution.

One last suggestion for upcoming multiplayer Doom ports: If the device can handle it, allow a yes/no option for monsters to be included in Deathmatch. Just for a little change-up from all the ports that traditionally lack it.

Thanks for reading. :)

(Edit 02/21/10: Added link to DoomComp guide, which now includes iPhone Doom.)

[Ledmeister]

Naked Snake said:

EDIT : to simplify the dialogue on death, it should merely prompt you : "Need some help?" and you can answer yes or no.

I like that, a lot.

[esselfortium]

Ledmeister said:

I think that having all of the individual maps available immediately will make the single-player Doom experience a little too casual, reducing the player’s level of commitment to something like that needed for a round of Sudoku, or a hand of solitaire, or some other idle time-filler for a 20 minute bus commute.

That's the whole point. If someone wants to sit down at home and play through the entirety of Doom, they'll do it on a computer. Allowing the game to be started on any level makes mobile play much more worthwhile, and will probably give it more replay value as well.

[printz]

On the computer, Doom or just about anything can be warped at start-up to any level. If not by command-line, then by front-end. So allowing it on a portable device like the iPhone doesn't make it any different to the PC version.

Actually John Carmack's starting gear method has been used already in games, like Quake 2 or Doom 3.

[Khorus]

printz said:

On the computer, Doom or just about anything can be warped at start-up to any level. If not by command-line, then by front-end. So allowing it on a portable device like the iPhone doesn't make it any different to the PC version.

Except. It's on a portable device. Sure, there's laptops, but I don't consider them to be that useful for such short, convienient gaming sessions while on a bus or somesuch.

[Super Jamie]

I have a GP2X with PrBoom on it, that's just as portable as a Nintendo DS or iPhone. It's trivial to make a shortcut with -warp in it. If one was so inclined, they could even write a launcher to do the same.

I think the idea of level warping is great. Mobile gaming is often casual gaming, it should be a fun few-minute blast, however the user wants it to be. But if someone wants to be a purist and start from ExM1 with Pistol+50 then they should have the option of doing that too.

[Ledmeister]

esselfortium said:

That's the whole point. If someone wants to sit down at home and play through the entirety of Doom, they'll do it on a computer. Allowing the game to be started on any level makes mobile play much more worthwhile, and will probably give it more replay value as well.

Yeah I can see the point, and the intent here; I'm just wondering if the only solution is to have the entire mapset splayed open and unlocked from the first minute of ownership.

It might be more convenient to pick your starting point anywhere on the route of the Boston Marathon, but there's still something to be said for working your way through the course the old fashioned way. Make it too tempting to skip ahead, and I think it detracts somewhat from the overall experience; the feeling of accomplishment from earning your way through the single-player game is diminished.

The more I think about it, the more I like the Jaguar-Doom solution: Yes you can jump to any map at any time, so long as you beat it once at some point.

C'mon, make 'em work a little to unlock the mapset. :)

[Ledmeister]

Naked Snake said:

EDIT : to simplify the dialogue on death, it should merely prompt you : "Need some help?" and you can answer yes or no.

I think this has some potential...
Answer No, and you restart the map again like always. Answer Yes and *Gwarng* you restart the map but you're invincible for 30 seconds. No Invulnerability power-up or extra weapons on the map needed.
Keep score for this choice. If the player answered yes for that map, the score screen shows "Needed help!" next to a tiny picture of the status-bar marine face wearing a baby bonnet, like the "Can I play, Daddy?" picture from Wolf3D.

;)

[DuckReconMajor]

Personally, I think both sides are being a bit extreme. Yes, I agree it would be a turnoff to buy Doom for the iPhone and have nothing to do but die repeatedly in the first map. However, I'm not so big on turning this into Sandbox Doom, either. Even on super-casual games like Tetris, there's always a level of progression there. Though some versions let you start on level thirty-something, for example, none of them will let you just jump into the last level. You've got to work for it.

I think a good idea would be to have the player beat the level normally first, pistol start and all, but after the player beats that level, can start the map with his or her selection of weapons and ammunition. This would both add replay value and give newer players another way to familiarize themselves with the game's mechanics.

[DoomKn1ght]

Well, at first I would suggest to make the controls as fast and smart as possible for an iphone.
-I would redesign the status bar to make it looks like a handheld game console with an arrow pad for forward, back, strafe left, strafe right.
-I think DooM gameplay is all about the way you handle strafe&turn so i would try to put turn right and turn left in a handy way.
-Press on enemies to shout them and on switch to turn them on/off
-press on weapons icon to switch weapon.
-also I always thought that the concrete-like statusbar was looking odd (I like how Saturn DooM statusbar look though.)

And for starting weapons I would do that by difficulties and episodes in order to make it more generic for PWADs, not on a per level scheme.

skills:
- skill 1 and 2: pistol + 25 bullets.
- skill 3 : pistol + shotgun + 50 bullets + 4 shells.
- ultra-violence: pistol + shotgun + chaingun + 50 bullets + 4 shells.
- nightmare: pistol + shotgun + chaingun + RL + 50 bullets + 4 shells + 2 rockets.

episodes (UDooM):
- 1: pistol + 50 bullets.
- 2: pistol + shotgun + 50 bullets + 4 shells.
- 3: pistol + shotgun + chaingun + 50 bullets + 4 shells.
- 4: pistol + shotgun + chaingun + RL + 50 bullets + 4 shells + 2 rockets.

parts (DooMII, plutonia, tnt):
- 1: pistol + 50 bullets.
- 2: pistol + shotgun + 50 bullets + 4 shells.
- 3: pistol + shotgun + chaingun + RL + 50 bullets + 4 shells + 2 rockets.

I would make episodes and skills almost additives(the numbers of ammo is approximative here).

I would consider to add a SNESDooM like episode accessibility system just to make it more progressive challenge.

And instead of cheats I would add bonus when you complete a secret level or an episode or the game in a given time like:
- start levels with a green or blue armor
- start levels with a chainsaw
- start levels with a plasma gun and 40 cells
- start levels with a BFG9k and 40 cells
- invulnerability
- map all lines on
etc.

Ok, this may seems a bit ridiculous, dunno.

Edit: I second the jagdoom system idea.

[MG_Man]

I agree with Gez, but depending on the level, the starting gear could be whatever weapons are already in the level (if they're not placed in secrets)

If getting that weapon doesn't happen until later in the level, then perhaps it should delay that weapon for the next level.

So, you would end up getting the Shotgun on E1M2.


About the whole 'pick any level' discussion, I think you should start out with Episode 1 unlocked, and you have to complete 75% of the episode (Boss Level Required) / every level to unlock the next episode.

To unlock the more challenging Episode 4, one would need to complete every level in the first 3 episodes. This seems like it would cater to both the long-term and the casual players.



Also, I have an idea for a control scheme that basically abuses the fact that you can't look up and down in DooM.


On the left side of the screen, there's a virtual joystick/analog stick that controls forward/back and strafing. Somewhere above that is a toggle key for running.

Along the top of the screen is a weapon selection bar.

On the right side is another sort of virtual stick for turning. Somewhere above that would be a 'fire' key, and below it would be a 'use' key.

The real kicker here, however, is that for the turning control, you could slide your thumb up to the 'fire' button but it still acts as if you were controlling the turning lever as well, enabling you to strafe, turn, and fire at the same time. The same could be for the Use key, but I don't see the need to fire and press use at the same time.

I'm sorry if I didn't explain it well enough, maybe I should make a diagram of sorts.

[arrrgh]

Ledmeister said:

I think this has some potential...
Answer No, and you restart the map again like always. Answer Yes and *Gwarng* you restart the map but you're invincible for 30 seconds. No Invulnerability power-up or extra weapons on the map needed.
Keep score for this choice. If the player answered yes for that map, the score screen shows "Needed help!" next to a tiny picture of the status-bar marine face wearing a baby bonnet, like the "Can I play, Daddy?" picture from Wolf3D.

;)

This is the best idea so far.

[Icytux]

just a question :D

will there be some kind of "bluetooth multiplayer" or something like that to play with friends?

[Hellbent]

I like the idea.. I'd like to see it in PC doom as well and am kind of surprised it hasn't been implemented in any ports.

Gez said:

As an incentive to find the secret levels, maybe also add a green armor to all starting gear in an episode where the secret level has been completed.

Do you mean starting with green armor at the start of the levels after the secret level only if you've completed the secret level... otherwise no green armor? I think this is a good idea; although maybe 50% instead of 100%.

E1M1-E1M2 - pistol + 50 bullets
E1M3-E1M4 - shotgun + 4 shells
E1M5-E1M6 - shotgun + 6 shells
E1M7 - shotgun + 8 shells
E1M8 - shotgun + 8 shells, +25% green armor
E1M9 - shotgun + 8 shells, +25% green armor

@Gez: I strongly advise against giving higher weapons... all you need in Doom is a shotgun. Don't give out chaingun and RL and other goodies later on (except maybe at start of secret levels and some E4 levels). I also strongly disagree with backpack... these are luxuries.. not necessities.

E2M1-E2M2 - pistol + 50 bullets
E2M3-E2M4 - shotgun + 4 shells
E2M5-E2M6 - shotgun + 6 shells
E2M7 - shotgun + 8 shells
E2M8 - shotgun + 8 shells, chaingun + 50 bullets
E2M9 - shotgun + 8 shells, +30% green armor, +20 cells, +2 rockets

E3M1 - pistol + 50 bullets
E3M2 - shotgun + 3 shells
E3M3-E3M4 - shotgun + 4 shells
E3M5-E3M7 - shotgun + 8 shells
E3M8 - shotgun + 8 shells, chaingun + 50 bullets, +25% green armor
E3M9 - 75% health, shotgun + 8 shells, chaingun + 25 bullets, +20% blue armor

E4M1 - pistol + 50 bullets
E4M2 - chaingun + 25 bullets, +4 shells
E4M3 - chainsaw?, +4 shells, +5 rockets
E4M4-E4M6 - shotgun + 6 shells
E4M7 - +4 shells
E4M8 - rocket launcher + 2 rockets, +8 shells, +25% green armor
E4M9 - shotgun + 8 shells, rocket launcher + 2 rockets, +15% green armor

Something along these lines... I suggest you keep the scheme simple.

[Super Jamie]

Icytux said:

will there be some kind of "bluetooth multiplayer" or something like that to play with friends?

http://www.idsoftware.com/iphone-doom-classic-progress/

The initial release will be for OS 2.x, and support multiplayer over WiFi. A later release will be for 3.x only, and support bluetooth multiplayer. I looked into the possibility of 3G multiplayer, but the latencies just aren't good enough

[Julian]

As could be anticipated, we end up with very various answers. Truth is usual Doom players have became extremely demanding on the difficulty front. Unless you intend to have some kind of open beta (and providing there are enough users out here with an iphone -- which I somehow doubt), you'll probably get a better picture since the main issue is most definitely the control scheme (can be described but has to be used in order to have a good feel at its limitations).

Could be a good idea to go see the demo "pros" out here (not sure all of them actually check the general forum), see who has an iphone and get on with early beta testing.

Another solution could be to check into how Oblige deals with difficulty settings and episode progression. Maybe there's some kind of automatic formula that could be extracted from it in order to know what the player would need so that a level is brought back to an near E1M1 difficulty range (if that's the idea). I'm sure Andrew Apted would be more than happy to explain his system in detail to you.

But, truly, in the end, it all boils down to the type of monsters you have in a map, not the weaponry, imo.

[newt]

AlexMax said:

Pistol starting every map is possible. However, I think agree with you that it can be a little 'much' at times, especially given the iphone's movement limitations. How about this instead...

When selecting a map that is not the first map in an episode (not ExM1 or MAP01), a prompt will ask you if you want to pistol start or have some additional gear. Finishing a map from a pistol start awards a 'pistol start' medal kind of like 100% kills/100% items/100% secrets.

I don't think I can add any constructive ideas that have not already been suggested, but adding pistol start as an option would be good for those who prefer a challenge. Not sure an award for it is necessary but it'd be a nifty little addition, I suppose.

Always awesome to see a developer ask advice of its fanbase! :)

[Lantern Jaw]

What kind of sick corporation sends a space marine into a monster-infested world with only a pistol anyway?!

[eargosedown]

Lantern Jaw said:

What kind of sick corporation sends a space marine into a monster-infested world with only a pistol anyway?!

Pfft, he was told to guard the ship.

[Lantern Jaw]

eargosedown said:

Pfft, he was told to guard the ship.

To which he should've replied "what with?"

[eargosedown]

Lantern Jaw said:

To which he should've replied "what with?"

Probably did. Thats why they gave him a small pistol... To shut him up.

[Lantern Jaw]

eargosedown said:

Probably did. Thats why they gave him a small pistol... To shut him up.

Ah haaa! NOW it makes sense.

[Lutz]

Forgive me for not having done my homework, but won't Doom Classic support (some form of) selectable difficultly levels? If so, I think that's the answer. I would support leaving starting gear untouched and let the player select how hard and numerous the monsters will be. Also, if levels are selectable from the get-go, perhaps you could implement some sort of Halo-like system in which the user can play certain levels on hard but bump down to medium for the one that he/she just can't get past.

(Also, LJ, in my experience, real Marines aren't generally known to give their superior officers a lot of lip...)

[Super Jamie]

Lutz said:

(Also, LJ, in my experience, real Marines aren't generally known to give their superior officers a lot of lip...)

Except that's the whole reason Doomguy is on Mars to begin with - assaulting a superior officer who ordered troops to open fire on civilians.