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Abyssalstudios1

BFGs in DM maps?

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I'm tinkering with a few deathmatch maps, and one question I have is your opinion on BFGs. Some people love them, and others hate them. It's true that most people who don't like them aren't very good at using/finding them, but never mind.

What's your reaction when you find a BFG in a map? My attitude is, if the player got to the BFG, they deserve it. Doom 2 Map03 is a rather good example if it's the player's first time doing that. But I don't like the idea of a BFG just sitting there, waiting for someone to pick it up and erase the screen with it.

Thoughts?

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I think DM has problems with weapon balance. All anyone ever uses is the SSG or the BFG, if they can get their hands on it.

I agree with your reasoning about the use of BFGs, though. But they're not balanced DM weapons by a long shot. :P

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I think BFGs are cool but if they will be everywhere, there isnt fun to play...

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Having really quite limited DM experience, I'm a bit on the fence. However, knowing how overpowered it is, I lean towards not making it available unless it's particularly difficult to either find or obtain. The issue of balance is easily fixed either if obtaining the gun itself puts the player in jeopardy at the hands of others (a la a really slow lift or something), or if it is placed on some far corner of the map that would make it more difficult for any more than one person to get it at a time.

The SSG is a bit of a nuisance in terms of balance as well, but I'd certainly forgive that much sooner than putting a BFG in the middle of the room that anyone could grab in a second.

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My opinion is that the BFG is a higher tier weapon (or probably the highest tier weapon) and it should be treated as such in any map, not just DM. However I think the tier status and usefulness of the BFG varies more drastically in a DM map than it does in say a SP/COOP map. Just like the Plasma, the BFG will lose or gain some of it's effectiveness based on the room your using it in. Plasma loses it's effectiveness in larger rooms from my experience; the BFG is generally harder to use in larger, open rooms as well since you either have to get a direct hit with the projectile or find a wall nearby to fire it into and have the hitscans do the damage. I know that I've heard the argument that the BFG requires skill to use, just like any of the other weapons. While I believe this is the case to an extent, you still can't ignore that it is a higher tier weapon and it shouldn't be as readily available to the player like a Chaingun or a Shotgun. I tend to add BFGs sparingly in my DM maps. When I do add them, I try to make the player put forth more effort to get the BFG than just spotting it in the corner and than walking over it.

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It depends on what type of a map it is. If it's intended for mostly 1-on-1 matches, then the BFG tends to be a crucial weapon in the arsenal. It does take skill to use it effectively, especially when your target is moving around at lightning speed. It makes your opponent more defensive, so you can pin them in a corner for the kill. However, it also makes you vulnerable between shots. There seems to be a certain balance to it.

On maps that are oriented towards FFA on the other hand, the BFG is not particularly the greatest weapon to put in there. The BFG tends to be what everyone wants to go for first, and when you have many more targets to deal with, someone will always fall victim to your BFG.

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TheeXile said:

I think DM has problems with weapon balance. All anyone ever uses is the SSG or the BFG, if they can get their hands on it.


Bollocks. Rocket Launcher and Plasma Rifle are both well suited for DM (and are both great for map01 anti BFGing). And chaingun tapping is great in the more open maps.

I think the BFG is a great DM weapon. It takes skill to both use and to avoid being hit.

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it's a weapon requiring the most DM skill by far. you don't realize that until you play against a skilled opponent. as EQ said, he will get more defensive, always having a place to cover ready, and you'd be amazed how long it takes to fire it compared to walking straight up to you and ssg'ing you right in the face. the sheer power might seem too much, but the timing, positioning and ammo consumption make up for that.

i'm definitely in favour of putting bfg into maps. placement should mirror design, though. if your map is open and spacious, make it harder to reach, because the opponent has reduced hiding options fighting against it. if your map contains maze-like parts and/or narrow corridors, it's safe to go easy with it and just put it somewhere in plain sight, because rocket launchers get dominant anyways.

also, i've seen levels with bfg puzzles, traps or otherwise extremely complicated access... if it's overdone, the bfg becomes just a sad decoration and no one bothers with it. it's not THAT amazing to make an easy target of yourself, especially on maps with 'ssg spawns'. just DON'T place it anywhere near armors/powerups. map03 is a sad example of how NOT to do it. bfg user must be weak and endangered by, let's say, blast damage off rockets on nearby walls. armored bfg tank will disregard enemy fire and just rush in for the kill.

i think ssg is abused much more than bfg, dwango5 map01 being a perfect example. on the other hand, i agree that bfg kills ffa.

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No, BFG doesn't kill FFA. Campers kill FFA with their unfair behaviour!

The BFG is a weapon like others: it has got its pros and cons, as most of you pointed out:
+ pros:
- high firepower;
- hit scans;
- silent BFG trick;
+ cons:
- slow fire rate;
- slow fire shot;
- it requires skill and experience (both to use and avoid it).
So we can say that cons balance pros.

It's normal that most players tend to reach and use BFG in FFAs: it can kill a lot of players with just one shot, so that you can get a high amount of frags!
Making the BFG hard to get can make games more interesting and make players use different weapons than it. Putting it on a slow lift or behind a slow door or such can be a good idea, since it makes the player looking for it weaker (look at brit11, for instance)! Avoid putting BFG in good places for campers (like in brit10)!

As for 1-on-1, the BFG requires much more skill and experience than in FFA. If you don't know how to use the BFG trick, most times your opponent will be safe behind a wall or other cover; moreover you must try to be fast and let the BFG shot hit a wall instead of the opponent, otherwise he/she will evade it pretty easily, unless there's no cover (i.e. large arenas). Moreover, most players tend to use SSG in duels. Nevertheless making the BFG hard to reach or a "sensitive target" can still be a good idea, to avoid players abusing it (look at Judas23, for instance).

The problem is not BFG, the problem is CAMPERS: they kill the game with their plasma or rocket spam against respawn spots or teleport destinations: it's extremely irritating getting killed every time you respawn without being able to do anything! It's simply unfair; it's just unsporting!

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Ismaele said:

No, BFG doesn't kill FFA. Campers kill FFA with their unfair behaviour!


I wish you would leave this out of the dw forums... :(

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Ismaele said:

CAMPERS

Only losers complain about other people using tactics.

EDIT: and yes. BFGS FTW.

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meh, campers. they're fun to hunt.

as for the bfg, it demands skill to use in 1 on 1 (as well as to counter it for the opponent). i've never found the bfg being overpowered in duels, when a good ssg to the face or a well-timed rocket can shut it down quickly. however, ffa maps should definitely have the bfg in an exposed spot or hard to get, or ffa becomes "spawn and run for the bfg".

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you should put the BFG in a nasty spot like over a thin bridge that will cause a small shot to knock u into an unescapeable lava pit or something..

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Right now I'm leaning towards leaving the BFG out of most of my FFA maps, and let it make a special appearance on some maps as a treat. In fact, I may design a few maps revolving around the BFG and its use.

Thanks for all of the feedback. Now I have a better understanding of how people view it.

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kristus said:

Only losers complain about other people using tactics.

EDIT: and yes. BFGS FTW.

Camping is not a tactic! Camping is just a good way to KILL the game!
Try to play in a map, where half of the players camp on different spawn spots: you'll soon get angry and quit the game...
Oh, but maybe you don't play DM on-line...!

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it's pretty apparent you're talking about the bfg whorage in 8-players brit10 ffa on zdaemon. well, guess what, the joke's on you. it's a DUEL wad, the maps were made for 1on1. the opponent with bfg is perfectly manageable if it's just him and you. it's YOUR mistake you're trying to defend the concept of cramming 8 players into a ridiculously small space and expect everyone to use just ssgs. anyone with a grain of sensibility will run for the bfg... no, scratch that. sensible person won't play b10 on 8-players ffa. the wad is fantastic for duelling and has excellent ballance between ssg/rl/bfg usage, which is kinda unique.

you also mentioned brit11, which has bigger maps and was specifically designed for 2-4 players DM. it does work better, but very high player limits destroy the design intentions, too. fuck, i remember maps ending in 5 seconds, because there were more players than player starts and they telefragged madly until the fraglimit, because nooo they won't wait while their opponents get cheap frags!

Abyssalstudios1:
wise move, i'd say. if you're specifically designing for (high player) ffa, the bfg needs some experience to place. i'd say start up zdaemon/skulltag, join the regularly played wads and learn from the mistakes. the main one i already mentioned - people LOVE overpopulating DUEL maps. the bfg comes cheap and the only way you won't hitscan anyone is facing a wall. a popular wad with good bfg control would be greenwar, it's usually hard to get and easy to block.

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The BFG saps the fun out of deathmatch becuase it is so hard to dodge the rays, you basically seem to die for no reason which is extremely frustrating, if it was editing via Dehacked or something to function like the Quake 3 BFG I reckon it would be better for deathmatch.

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Huh? I know exactly how the BFG rays function, becuase I don't think it's appropriate for deathmatch that makes me a noob? I have been playing Doom deathamtch for about 3 years now...

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Captain Toenail said:

Huh? I know exactly how the BFG rays function, becuase I don't think it's appropriate for deathmatch that makes me a noob? I have been playing Doom deathamtch for about 3 years now...


Please read this.

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Although I haven't done actual doom deathmatch, the BFG in theroy doesn't seem too hard to dodge in areas with cover or areas were you could easily get out of the ray range. What probably would suck though are games that allow BFG aiming -- That would probably ruin it since the players now have a super-bfg-shotgun.

Plus, the FAQ states that the BFG traces will only go in the angle the ball went, while still coming from the attacker. It should be easy to get behind your target to get out of the cone if you have enough time to compensate.

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Brit10 isn't designed for that many players.

Anyway, as the world's greatest multiplayer Doomer (of all time), I can safely say that complaining about any weapons or camping just shows that you suck balls and that I will always be the best

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InsanityBringer said:

Although I haven't done actual doom deathmatch, the BFG in theroy doesn't seem too hard to dodge in areas with cover or areas were you could easily get out of the ray range. What probably would suck though are games that allow BFG aiming -- That would probably ruin it since the players now have a super-bfg-shotgun.



the bfg was designed for use in classic doom (with autoaim) and should never be used with free aiming, at least not in dm. suppress the noise of the bfg charging up by jumping (as in a legacy dm i used to play years ago with some friends) and you get a handful of noobs jumping around while shooting the floor.

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