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David_Dweedle

What do you consider a Fair yet Deadly Trap?

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I just want to get some Opinions on Fair yet Deadly traps.

Im going to start adding things like Crusher Traps and Unescapable Toxic pits into my maps as I am getting more confident with my mapping abilitys.

But what would you consider.. an Unfair trap? like.. a Crusher with no Warning maybe? Just want to get some opinions. Thanks.

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I consider levels that can throw you into an unwinnable situation pretty unfair (like e.g. single-time doors or switches that you need to get past or else be unable to progress, or bottomless pits, unless the author clearly specifies these to be considered as "losing", rather than design oversight).

I recall one badly designed map had a sort of jigsaw/stepped floor puzzle...with the catch that the "steps" could only be risen or lowered once from initially hidden and unmarked switches, with no prior indication of what they did.

If you didn't know the correct sequence then bam, you would be stuck in the room forever (there could even not be a correct sequence at all, since the levels were meh).

Then in HR there were a couple of spots which were IMO almost impossible to get past without cheating, since there were no invulnerabilities available (one was a room full of Archviles that kept you airborne as soon as you dared stepping in, and the other a cage of sorts that forced you to fight against powerful monsters teleporting outside the cage. Even with repeated BFG blasts you got torn up pretty badly even if you had 200H 200A to begin with.

Anyway, there are plenty of others I can't think of right now.

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Both are fair as long as there are obvious danger signs, and make some sense within the gameworld. On Phobos, a fair inescapable pit has nukage in the bottom, and perhaps additional danger sign textures. In hell, it has lava. On Phobos, a fair crushing ceiling appears to be some sort of industrial machinery. If currently inactive, this machinery can still be identified as some sort of industrial die stamp or crusher, and the floor will probably be a conveyor belt. In hell, a crushing ceiling is a marble slab that begins to fall when a key is taken. Unpredictable crushing ceilings can stay in 1994.

I've given some thought to a related question lately: how do you design a challenge that walks the line between boring and bullshit? It's a difficult mark to hit, especially if avid Doomers are your audience, who have reached more-or-less peak playing ability and are used to judging (often correctly) that fights that are too hard for them are too hard. Fortunately, I think that if you make an effort to balance a level well, the tougher challenges that you introduce to the player later on are likely to be perceived as beatable and fair, instead of as impossible feats requiring superhuman skills, even if that's exactly what they are. Get the player's trust, and then betray it :)

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Some of the traps I've made are tricky but passable (See my map "The Unknown Base"'s red key area).

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Pretty much what everyone else said. If a trap is 99% impossible even when prepared for it, it's unfair. But if your map is good enough (and not too long either), a trap might get someone and they maybe enouraged to play the map again.

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Cause on my Hell Station map I have a crusher but Ive put dead corpses under where it starts.. I think I need to put more Warning.

EDIT: Pity Doom 2 dosn't come with Ceilings with Blood splats on em.. lol.

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...so the Doomguy walks into a seemingly empty exit room (DooMII-01). He presses the switch, side walls come down and now he's forced to Tyson 2 Barons. Another switch rises up behind him blocking the only way out. You press it...now guess what?

...

You're trapped in a miniature version of DooMII-07...with 4 Cybies and 4 Afrits!! Of course you'll get the BFG and cells...good luck. XP

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David_Dweedle said:

Im going to start adding things like...Unescapable Toxic pits

Don't you dare

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Inescapable pits are stupid. Don't do it. Crushers are stupid unless you can see beforehand or get some sort of warning. It can't be super subtle either. Basically anything else is fine really, as long as it's not retarded impossible to survive/get around/whatever.

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Bashe said:

Don't you dare


Seconded.

I know Death Pits exist in official maps and they are somewhat better then Purgatory Pits (I don't know when to quit!). Why can't it be just a massively annoying penalty that simply makes the rest of the level more difficult because the player screwed up. I dislike damaging floors enough when they are required (with too few or no rad suits) to pass but one slip = death isn't very fun and does not allow for a redemption of sorts... Where the player has to play better now because they screwed up before if they don't wish to start the level over already.

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Putting inescapable pits into levels is the ultimate dick move, especially for people who like trying to play levels without saving, who are fucked if they even accidentally fall in. They aren't fun, they aren't interesting, they just piss people off. I never use them at all, out of principle and common decency.

So yeah...say NO to inescapable death pits. Please.

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Traps I like involve powerups and time limits. One idea I had recently was having to cross a large field with tons of chaingunners in the distance that would otherwise make it suicide to attempt but for a single Invisibility sphere to buy you that little extra bit of hitscan scatter to let you limp across in the nick of time.

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I'd say it depends on the kind of a level you are working on. If it's a "suspense" level, then you can (and should) get away with nastier use of "architecture traps" (pits, crushers...). However if you're working on a "normal" level, then you should apply some warning and escape routes, and if it's just a slaughter map then consider leaving traps out altogether.

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Too much hate directed against reactor tanks aka inescapable slime pits. The thing is that they CAN exist, but it would be sensible to warn the player about them -- put them in a place where there's no risk of slipping, put lots of POISON signs and bright light, use Strife-style railings (or even complete grates). I like to always use death pits or chasms in my maps so they resemble classic levels. They often contain the POISON sign.

A fair trap is one that's well playtested until the user finishes the level legitimately.

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The original Cleimos megawad had a lot of deadly or otherwise unescapable traps which were not marked as such. For example, already on E1M2 (or E1M4?) there was a small area with a cyberdemon (!) and two barons. It could only be survived if you knew beforehand where the hidden escape door was, but no fucking way you could pull that out without a BFG.

Speaking of which, there was (apparently) a BFG room in that same map with a crusher ceiling and only one "safe spot"...with the difference that entering that room was a one-way affair, so you could only commit suicide or sit on the safe spot forever, since there was no way out.

To be fair, the authors had put a warning that "any places you can't escape from count as deaths. Restart the level or reload". Uhmmm....OK, whatever. Still felt pretty cheap. At least if something is supposed to be a "deadly" trap, it should actually kill you rather than throw you into an unwinnable limbo.

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As has pretty much been said, IMO, some of the worst traps are the ones that leave you stranded. There is little more frustrating than standing in a map with a full pack of ammo, plenty of health and dead monsters all over the area you have explored but you are unable to continue because some combination of things has left you unable to get through a door/up a ledge/over a valley/whatever. So you either just restart the map, quit or cheat. Very unsatisfying.

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Revenants WAY over the other side of the map who sit and pick you off with homing missiles before you even get a chance.

Traps filled with Chaingunners and no place to hide, sapping your 200/200 health in a matter of seconds.

I quit any map the instant I reach any of these features.

Generalising, any trap that isn't really a test of "player skill", but rather sets you up for an almost inescapable death, or where your survival relies on what numbers the psueudorandom generator gives you.

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Bashe said:
Don't you dare

Maybe you were being ironic, but I think they can work, but they shouldn't be too much in the way. After all, even the IWAD levels use them, like the slime around the circle in E1M3, or the pit in front of the entrance.

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Nixot said:

Arch-viles.

Get real. Good Arch Vile usage is one of the scariest and most fun parts of Doom 2 PWADs, they're probably my favorite enemy after the Mancubus.

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Super Jamie said:

Get real.

+

Super Jamie said:

Revenants

=
!!!

Snipers revvies aren't hard.

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Jodwin said:

Snipers revvies aren't hard.

Okay. Any other non-boss monster, except maybe the Chaingunner, this level would be beatable with eyes closed. With Revenants? No way.

Edit: I forgot a switch texture on one side of the exit doors. But I'm sure you get the idea.

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myk said:

Maybe you were being ironic, but I think they can work, but they shouldn't be too much in the way. After all, even the IWAD levels use them, like the slime around the circle in E1M3, or the pit in front of the entrance.


It's interesting that when these traps are instant death, as is quite common in more modern games like Doom3 for instance or Doom wads for that matter. No one seem to take any notice to them.

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Super Jamie said:

Okay. Any other non-boss monster, except maybe the Chaingunner, this level would be beatable with eyes closed. With Revenants? No way.

Edit: I forgot a switch texture on one side of the exit doors. But I'm sure you get the idea.


Heh, just messed around with that map real quick...on Nightmare.

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David_Dweedle said:

EDIT: Pity Doom 2 dosn't come with Ceilings with Blood splats on em.. lol.


But you can make maps that come with floors with blood splats on em..

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