1994 tune-up challenge (*updated /idgames link*)

[Malinku]

I'm still working but slowly as I don't really like to detail (mainly because of the time it takes) and I like to stay in the runoff list even if a spot opens up on the main list.

[Kyka]

Sorry if this idea has already been mentioned, but I ain't reading through 27 pages of posts to check if it has, but was there any plans to release a second wad with all of the original versions of the maps in it? I think it would be kinda cool to be able to compare the levels.

Though that would probably just make more work too.

Anyway, Snarboo and everyone involved, this looks really good, and from what I have seen, it seems to all have progressed pretty smoothly too.

Great work, look forward to this.

[Snarboo]

Kyka said:

Sorry if this idea has already been mentioned, but I ain't reading through 27 pages of posts to check if it has, but was there any plans to release a second wad with all of the original versions of the maps in it? I think it would be kinda cool to be able to compare the levels

That was the plan. I think it would make comparing the original maps much easier and would be a nice bonus once this project is finished.

Next week I'm heading to Virginia to spend time with family, so I'll be gone roughly a week over the Christmas holiday. I'll try and check in, but while I'm not here, feel free to discuss the project and test maps. :)

[GreyGhost]

Might be difficult sneaking the second wad past Ty if the contents are already in the archive. An alternative that could work would be incorporating the original maps as secret areas in their re-detailed counterparts - with the two linked by teleporters. Yes/no/dumb?

[ArmouredBlood]

If every map has a pretty isolated starting point it could work by having a secret room behind the player start marked with some random texture that wouldn't be used by anyone in the beginning. Or possibly build the secret into the start room. If it's done that way than there'll still be a bit of work copy/pasting each map in and changing all the tags to work right, especially if there's dm support, although dming most of these maps would not be a fun idea.

However there have been separate maps from megawads uploaded right? Since it's for a specific project I think the reverse could pass, especially since it'd be only 1 (2 counting the actual edits) entry.

[Graf Zahl]

GreyGhost said:

Might be difficult sneaking the second wad past Ty if the contents are already in the archive. An alternative that could work would be incorporating the original maps as secret areas in their re-detailed counterparts - with the two linked by teleporters. Yes/no/dumb?

For god's sake, just ask him! I doubt that it matters if there is a point to it. When KDiZD was released I did the same, outlining the situation and he approved. If you keep both WADs in the same Zip I doubt that he'd mind.

There's really no need for hacks. In particular, if you include all the originals with the reworked levels in the same map it totally screws up the monster count.

[myk]

Why not just provide links in an HTML file to all the official WAD locations so people can download the original stuff if they want? It's more authentic than grabbing them and putting them in the ZIP, and not all the users will be interested in making direct comparisons with the old files. Some might compare a couple and ignore others in that respect.

If the levels were all in other archives and the new WAD were placed apart from them, including the originals would make sense, but they're on the very same archive!

Notes like a mini-review, a screen shot comparison and some hints to why each author chose the level to retouch might also be a nice thing to include, giving more depth to the project. All this along with the links I mentioned above, of course.

That is add more new and original content instead of repeated stuff people can go get for themselves when they are really interested. Think creatively :p

Graf Zahl said:
When KDiZD was released I did the same, outlining the situation and he approved.

The only maps I see in the KDiZD ZIP are the 10 new ones...

[Walter confetti]

my map is still on working.
next time, pics!

[Graf Zahl]

myk said:

The only maps I see in the KDiZD ZIP are the 10 new ones...

I mean outlining a situation which normally would have caused a rejection due to archive rules. Asking doesn't hurt so logically it should be the first action before thinking up some harebrained schemes to circumvent the rules.

[Snarboo]

Just as an FYI, I had to reschedule my flight to mid January because of the recent blizzard.

[Talvi]

Do you still need testers? I could play these maps in a few hours/days and give some feedback.

[Torn]

Sorry guys, I will have to let this wait until the new year. :S
I hope it is okay.

[Super Mighty G]

Snarboo said: A set of Ultimate Doom textures taken from Freedoom for Doom 2 can be found here.

I JUST noticed that the textures in this link are from Freedoom. Shouldn't you link to this one instead?

[maggot202]

U.O.D. said:

I JUST noticed that the textures in this link are from Freedoom. Shouldn't you link to this one instead?

A lot of pages ago, it was discussed whether the project should use doom 1 textures. After a lot of copyright mumbo-jumbo that i didn't understood at all, it was decided that the project would use freedoom's textures. Along the way, some well known guy offered to re-create the textures in a better way, but said dude has been silent for a long time (not unlike many mappers for the project, such as i)

[Super Mighty G]

Copyright issues? Oh man. The way I understand it, as long as the wad requires a registered version of Doom 2 to work there's no problem.

I was actually reorganizing the texture pack in that link I posted so that the skies don't overlap and stuff. I was going to post it for people to use.

[Super Jamie]

U.O.D. said:

Copyright issues? Oh man. The way I understand it, as long as the wad requires a registered version of Doom 2 to work there's no problem.

That's just the issue, several Doom 1 textures are not in Doom 2, and any efforts to put them into Doom 2 could be seen as trying to circumvent the ownership of Doom 1 for a product that requires it. Many of these maps are made for Doom 1.

[Super Mighty G]

You know, a lot a megawads have used D1 textures without anyone caring. NDCP for example. WOS, that was posted on this very forum, uses D1 textures. I seriously think you guys are worrying about nothing.

[Super Jamie]

And most of us agreed. Read back through the thread.

In other news, I am going to start testing these maps. It always bugs me when a map pack I see released has errors, so I'm going to do something about it :P

[Super Mighty G]

Ugh, I couldn't get through all of it. This seems more like a moral issue than anything else. So I'm going to go ahead and post that texture wad after making sure it works right.

[Snarboo]

I'll be honest and say I've been in a bit of funk lately trying to take care of some personal things, so I haven't felt up to testing and playing Doom. That's why I asked for testers: I don't want the project to grind to a halt while I take care of my own issues. With that out of the way...

Talvi said:

Do you still need testers? I could play these maps in a few hours/days and give some feedback.

Yes, I would very much appreciate this!

Torn said:

Sorry guys, I will have to let this wait until the new year. :S
I hope it is okay.

This is perfectly fine. :)

Super Jamie said:

In other news, I am going to start testing these maps. It always bugs me when a map pack I see released has errors, so I'm going to do something about it :P

Thank you! :D I'll mark you and Talvi down as testers.

When testing, be sure to take screenshots of problem areas. I often have a hard time describing a map in words, something you might not have, but it makes it easier to see what the problem is with a screenshot. I would also like you to run through every map, regardless of if it has been marked finished.

If a link to a map is dead, please say so. I'm going to download all the maps again so I can mark those that have dead links.

Edit:

U.O.D. said:

Ugh, I couldn't get through all of it. This seems more like a moral issue than anything else. So I'm going to go ahead and post that texture wad after making sure it works right.

Please use the Freedoom texture resource that has been provided. While not as pretty as Doom's textures, it avoids a major issue with using Doom's textures verbatim and it simplifies things for testers and mappers.

Edit 2:
Alright, redownloaded most of the maps again. Only three were missing and one wasn't formatted right:

• Mr. Freeze - Hades House of Horror Part 1 (dead link)
  
• Lareman - Hades House of Horror Part 2 (missing link to finished version)
  
• maggot202 - Melange (improperly formatted, this means the upload is missing the original wad and its txt file. The finished remake seems to be fine however)
  
• walter confalonieri - Nefarious Chateau (dead link)
  

I apologize if any of you reuploaded your map and I forgot to update the first post. Please reupload your maps again.

[Super Jamie]

Glad you're still doing this Snarboo, a lesser man would have given up with all the bitching a long time ago. You're first in the list of completed levels so your map's up for testing!

MAP04 - Helipad - Snarboo


Linedef 1119 - Texture misalignment on the MIDBARS1 midtex. You can also see the sky wrap looking out the window.



Like this, from the platform you jump to where the chaingunner is.


Sector 56 - nukage does not damage like all other nukage sectors do.


Linedef 2144 - Sound tunnel visible, needs GRAY7 midtex.

Apart from that, pretty good, amazing improvement compared to the original. I liked the Doom 2 monster additions, the traps are clever but escapable. Due to the non-linear layout of the map, it can be a long time before you find armor, you may or may not wish to rectify that as the Blue Armor will last you the rest of the level once you find it. Some of the darks are a bit too dark, I would consider making Sector 70, 72, 542-545, etc a bit brighter so the player can see what they're shooting at, especially the chaingunners off to the sides.

I'm not too concerned about texture usage, though I'd make Linedef 1343 and 1364 a bordering texture of some kind, the little sliver of STARTAN1 looks a bit silly. You may wish to make sure all doors are inset, for example Sector 21.

[Snarboo]

Wow, that was fast! I cracked open my map in Slade and fixed most of the problems you mentioned. I'm not honestly sure what to do about the wrapping sky. I think I'm just going to leave it be for now.

I brightened up the sectors you mentioned, added a Shawn2 border to linedefs 1343 - 1346, and added another green armor to the map. On easy you get it almost immediately after going down the first lift, where as on medium and hard you don't find it until you get the chaingun in the "communications" room. I think I'm going to leave the doors as they are rather than inset them.

I tested the map and it works fine. I need to generate a reject lump for it and then I'll upload it. :)

[Walter confetti]

http://wadhost.fathax.com/files/nefcat_rmx.zip

fixed on wadhost...

[Snarboo]

Thanks Walter! I've added your map to the original post.

I've uploaded my recent fix of Helipad, which you can find here or in the first post. Let me know if there are any more problems. :)

[Super Mighty G]

Snarboo said:

Please use the Freedoom texture resource that has been provided. While not as pretty as Doom's textures, it avoids a major issue with using Doom's textures verbatim and it simplifies things for testers and mappers.

Well, if that's you're decision, I won't challenge it. I don't care to use those textures though, so I'll stick with Doom 2's selection.

About my map, I'll see if I can post the finished version tomorrow. I've gotten a little distracted with other maps recently. The map is practically done though.

[Snarboo]

Sounds good. As for textures, feel free to use them as you wish. I know not everyone is happy with Freedoom's, but I felt it was a good compromise.

[Super Jamie]

MAP05 - Elements - ArmouredBlood


The Caco in this alcove (Thing 112) gets stuck on the hanging body (Thing 374) which is blocking Type 77, change to non-blocking decoration such as hanging body Type 63.


This spider (Thing 184) gets stuck in his alcove by the pillar in front of him.


This little floor-bleedy HOM thing by the 2nd-last alcove before the exit room. I don't know what causes this?

This isn't too different to the original, though the battles you have changed make a nice difference. I assume the big HOM in the start is intentional, like a HOMage to the original map. (yes, I went there :P)

Lava around the Blue Key pickup (Sector 113) is not damaging. Nice touch with the Self-Referencing Sectors there too.

I felt the Manc battle was too easy with the Rocket Launcher, I then used all my Rockets which made the next Baron bit a bit repetitious to do with the SSG, perhaps move the RL into Sector 4?

Should Sector 147 (Berzerk pack before Plasma Gun) be secret?

I thought the last room was a little packed, I ran out of bullets and shells with a Baron and a HK to spare. Rockets proved ineffective due to the angle so I just rushed the exit.

I absolutely love the METAL light detailing in the Red Key tunnel, I'm totally going to use that idea myself :P

[Super Jamie]

MAP08 - Tunnels - 40oz

Absolutely beautiful, especially considering the original looks so bad. Gameplay is also miles better. Now this is a tune-up!

Very difficult to fault visually, I suspect these are just carry-ons from the original design.


Linedef 253 not pegged properly.


The W1 trigger to open Sector 66 didn't go off the first time I entered, as I was moving sideways to get health. Suggest moving trigger to Linedef 349.


This door (Sector 136) keeps opening and closing too fast, wasting precious ammo and being annoying. Suggest longer timer with Generalised Linedef or D1 Open Stay.


You can walk through these midtextures (Linedef 562 and 567) as you come back from above. Perhaps a very thin (1 unit) self-referencing sector hanging from the roof would work as a "block".


Linedef 1452 not pegged properly.


This little silver floor (Sector 228, etc) seems odd here simply because the rest of the map is so detailed. Suggest moving this up 8 to make a ledge. Also strange ceiling texture.

Pain Elemental at Thing 278 is harmless, easily dodged and not enough room to spawn even one Lost Soul as it dies. Hell Knight would be ok tho there's already one nearby, Caco would be better.

I somehow only managed to trigger 6 secrets though I found all 7. I am thinking Sector 155 is too thin?

Ammo and health are pretty tight, I only had 10 shells and a bunch of rockets left by the final pinkies, the balance is pretty much perfect.

Amazingly good job.

[GreyGhost]

Snarboo said:

I know not everyone is happy with Freedoom's, but I felt it was a good compromise.

What say I grab Nightmare and essel's patches, scrounge some more from this thread and build another texture wad?

[40oz]

its a little late for that. A lot of maps are already done with shitty textures. I'd be pissed if everyone else got to use cool new textures while my maps look like doom 2.