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kristus

Where are my shortcuts?

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I've been trying out DB2 and I'm getting very mixed feelings about it. The sector drawing is much much better than DB and it's not totally fucking annoying anymore. Though sometimes I get a new line when I am splitting other lines pasting verticies. Not sure why that is, but when I tried to replicate it while writing this post. It suddenly didn't happen anymore. So it's possible it's something I am doing without thinking, like pressing ctrl or something.

Another feature I really like is the ability to see light levels across the map in gray scale. Making it very easy to find and fix irregularities there.

Same with seeing the flats in the editor view.

Anyway, onwards to the juicy bits.

Why has DB2 done away with most of the information in it's information boxes? Like autostich, why is that not in the bottom bar anymore? A quick glance. Yes Autostich and snap to grid is on. I can click at them if I want to switch. Now you got some meaningless icon taking up real estate in the toolbar instead.
I managed to turn autostich off unknowingly. Took me quite a while to find that icon that looks like nothing and doesn't even have the same name as before. Merge geometry? What is the point of doing that? Confusing people?

I've yet to actually find out where the data on the level can be found. You know, Vertex count, Sectors and Sidedefs.

Then we go on to the shortcuts. Or "controls".
There's several controls that aren't there anymore. I can't find Toggle Middle texture for the 3d mode. Nor any command to increment lightlevels in a mass selection.

And then we got the matter of the flipping tools being missing. Where did they go? Are they supposed to be replaced by the strech box thing that is in DB2? How is that thing better?
EDIT: Just looked for these in the shotcuts and found them there. But it still doesn't make sense that you moved Autostich and Snap to grid up to the icon section and then removed the flipping icons that were actually used.
EDIT2: Ok they don't work.

Finally, I got a question that I've always had about DB. Why can't you change things directly in the info panel in DB? Why isn't it possible to select one or several sectors or one or several linedefs then click in the info bar to change a texture, linedef action, sector reference etc... instead of bringing up the linedef edit box or sector edit box. It's really obtuse IMO. It doesn't mean any visual change to the UI. Just means that you can activate the information seen in the info directly with a mouse click and edit them on the fly.

I hope I don't come off as too whiny. But I do get very frustrated when I use DB2 because of these things. (and probably some others that I can't quite remember now)

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kristus said:

I've yet to actually find out where the data on the level can be found. You know, Vertex count, Sectors and Sidedefs.

I'm not sure why it wasn't included as part of Doom Builder itself, but there's a separate plugin for that now.

I do miss certain things in DB2 that were present in DB1. Actually as I read your post, they are pretty much the same things you mentioned. Having to go into that Edit mode to flip and rotate selections feels awkward as opposed to how you could do it in DB1 just because those buttons are gone. And I'm still trying to figure out how I can do an arbitrary rotation instead of being limited to 45 degree increments (even though I would rarely use it...though it's useful for crates :P).

It's also funny that you should bring up that idea of editing a selection directly in the info panel. That was one big suggestion I wanted to make for DB2 but I never got around to it. Something like that would be pretty nice to have.

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Mechadon said:

I'm not sure why it wasn't included as part of Doom Builder itself, but there's a separate plugin for that now.

Plugins are nice and well. But they shouldn't be necessary for things that should already be in the program. Especially with all that empty space in the info bar and the bottom row of the window.

Mechadon said:

And I'm still trying to figure out how I can do an arbitrary rotation instead of being limited to 45 degree increments (even though I would rarely use it...though it's useful for crates :P).

Hold shift as you rotate it.

Mechadon said:

It's also funny that you should bring up that idea of editing a selection directly in the info panel. That was one big suggestion I wanted to make for DB2 but I never got around to it. Something like that would be pretty nice to have.

It's a feature of DETH that I really miss a lot in DB

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kristus said:

Hold shift as you rotate it.

Ha! Thanks for the tip, now my crates can face in all sorts of directions.

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Mechadon said:

And I'm still trying to figure out how I can do an arbitrary rotation instead of being limited to 45 degree increments (even though I would rarely use it...though it's useful for crates :P).


Hold down shift in edit mode and select a corner to rotate freely. I sometimes wish I could enter exact degrees though.

Edit: Agh, a little slow in posting.

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exl said:

I sometimes wish I could enter exact degrees though.

Another feature of DB left behind. With the linedef degree info in DB2 it would have been a match made in heaven.

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kristus said:

Why has DB2 done away with most of the information in it's information boxes? Like autostich, why is that not in the bottom bar anymore? A quick glance. Yes Autostich and snap to grid is on. I can click at them if I want to switch. Now you got some meaningless icon taking up real estate in the toolbar instead.
I managed to turn autostich off unknowingly. Took me quite a while to find that icon that looks like nothing and doesn't even have the same name as before. Merge geometry? What is the point of doing that? Confusing people?

I don't see how that is confusing. It is just a different word, which has the same meaning: The geometry you draw or drag will join with overlapping geometry (and as a little extra it helps you by snapping to it). Sure I can call it the same, if that helps you editing.

It is not in the statusbar because I don't find it very important. I found out that people mostly have Snap and Stitch turned ON and it is easier to hold Shift and/or Control during a draw or drag operartion to modify these functions rather than going up to the toolbar to toggle a button. (Holding control inverts Stitch and holding Shift inverts Snap)

kristus said:

I've yet to actually find out where the data on the level can be found. You know, Vertex count, Sectors and Sidedefs.

These statistics really don't tell you anything important about you map. More sectors don't make a better map. But I made a plugin for this though.

kristus said:

Then we go on to the shortcuts. Or "controls".

Just because it has a new and better terminology than before, doesn't mean you can't work with it. You're just looking for something to whine about here.

kristus said:

I can't find Toggle Middle texture for the 3d mode.

Press Insert on the upper or lower part of the wall to create the middle part.

kristus said:

Nor any command to increment lightlevels in a mass selection.

In Visual Mode this is done with CTRL+Scrollwheel and you can also use the Brightness Mode (B) (left click to select sectors, right click and drag mouse up/down to change levels, hold shift to disable snapping to supported light levels only). Pressing F1 shows you the reference manual which would also tell you this.

kristus said:

And then we got the matter of the flipping tools being missing. Where did they go? Are they supposed to be replaced by the strech box thing that is in DB2? How is that thing better?
EDIT: Just looked for these in the shotcuts and found them there. But it still doesn't make sense that you moved Autostich and Snap to grid up to the icon section and then removed the flipping icons that were actually used.
EDIT2: Ok they don't work.

You have to be in Edit Selection mode (press E). There are buttons on the toolbar to flip and the control keys for this work as well.

kristus said:

Finally, I got a question that I've always had about DB. Why can't you change things directly in the info panel in DB? Why isn't it possible to select one or several sectors or one or several linedefs then click in the info bar to change a texture, linedef action, sector reference etc... instead of bringing up the linedef edit box or sector edit box. It's really obtuse IMO. It doesn't mean any visual change to the UI. Just means that you can activate the information seen in the info directly with a mouse click and edit them on the fly.

If you are talking about JUST the textures/flats, yes I could make it so that clicking them would open up the browser to pick a new texture. But the other settings can't be edited that way. Such controls would take up too much space on the info panels and not all information is presented in the way it can be edited.

exl said:

I sometimes wish I could enter exact degrees though.

I sometimes wish a programmer or two would step up and make a plugin for the things they and other people want to see in DB2 that are not immediately doable, but easily doable through a plugin. Such as this. But it is much easier to whine about it and have CodeImp make it for free. I suppose it won't happen until I completely abandon DB2.

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CodeImp said:

I don't see how that is confusing. It is just a different word, which has the same meaning: The geometry you draw or drag will join with overlapping geometry (and as a little extra it helps you by snapping to it). Sure I can call it the same, if that helps you editing.

Changing the name of a function is confusing because when you're looking for said function you tent to look for the same name. Which is why I was wondering why you changed it. There's no reason to, so why do it?

CodeImp said:

It is not in the statusbar because I don't find it very important. I found out that people mostly have Snap and Stitch turned ON and it is easier to hold Shift and/or Control during a draw or drag operartion to modify these functions rather than going up to the toolbar to toggle a button. (Holding control inverts Stitch and holding Shift inverts Snap)

Change for change sake is not meaningful change. The Snap and Autostich functions are different from the other things in the toolbar which is why they fitted so well in the statusbar to begin with. It was a status.

CodeImp said:

These statistics really don't tell you anything important about you map. More sectors don't make a better map. But I made a plugin for this though.

I really don't care about your opinion on detail in maps.

They are important to me. Because I tend to make maps that are big and if I don't know how big a budget I have left to work with I can't plan my map as well as if I have that information handy. Everyone who makes maps and models and similar use these kinds of figures to orient themselves. This is something I use throughout the entire progress of the map. I usually have a good idea of the layout I want to use and I try to keep the level of detail even through the map. So I can then get directly from looking at these numbers what I can and can not do in the map and still expect to not have to delete a lot of stuff just to get it to run.

CodeImp said:

Press Insert on the upper or lower part of the wall to create the middle part.

Ok. So at least it's still there, that's good. Just not possible to rebind it to a key I actually want to use? Why? Because you didn't think it was important?

CodeImp said:In Visual Mode this is done with CTRL+Scrollwheel and you can also use the Brightness Mode (B) (left click to select sectors, right click and drag mouse up/down to change levels, hold shift to disable snapping to supported light levels only). Pressing F1 shows you the reference manual which would also tell you this.[/B]

This is obtuse. I still rather have it bound to keys that I can set up.

CodeImp said:You have to be in Edit Selection mode (press E). There are buttons on the toolbar to flip and the control keys for this work as well.[/B]

This is just pointless extra steps and quite obtuse.

CodeImp said:If you are talking about JUST the textures/flats, yes I could make it so that clicking them would open up the browser to pick a new texture. But the other settings can't be edited that way. Such controls would take up too much space on the info panels and not all information is presented in the way it can be edited.[/B]

No. I am talking about almost everything. Just like in DETH. Which BTW doesn't have a larger info bar than DB2 really.
Though I am using shortcuts for raising and lowering sectors. And in DB1 I used it for light levels too. Things like changing texture alignments is a pain in the ass because of all the steps you have to take just to get there.

You can see here what it looks like. And they've even been rather wasteful with the space it takes. I've marked the things that aren't changeable through the info bar with red.
http://www.tfuture.org/kristus/deth.jpg

CodeImp said:I sometimes wish a programmer or two would step up and make a plugin for the things they and other people want to see in DB2 that are not immediately doable, but easily doable through a plugin. Such as this. But it is much easier to whine about it and have CodeImp make it for free. I suppose it won't happen until I completely abandon DB2. [/B]

People make plugins for things they don't expect to see in the base program.

Also, considering how many people there are drooling over your editor. I'd think it'd not be that big a deal to accept some criticism without complaining about how horrible it is for you to work on this editor thing that no one appreciate.

Plus. I don't mind change in programs, but they should be there for a reason. Not just because you want things to be different.

I'll probably not gonna be able to check replies to this since I'll be going away in a few hours. Will be gone for about a week. But I'll try and get back in here at times and carry on any additional discussion.

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