Levels with the most difficult pistol start

[vdgg]

I would like to know your opinions about levels which are very hard when started from scratch, but not essentially "the toughest levels", since there were threads about this; I mean levels which are much more difficult from scratch then with the weapons and powerups gained in the previous levels. My examples:

Requiem level 24 - quite tricky (not enough ammo at the beginning), but not extremely hard. It is however much easier after level 23.

E3M6 from 2002ADO - health and armor are scarce and the player must lose much health because of poison/lava. The secrets help, but only just a little.

My "winner" would be (at least from the levels I can think of now) level 28 from STRAIN. It is generally hard - it's like playing with fast monsters without -fast parameters - very unintuitive design and monsters (including hitscanners) teleporting everywhere. But when started "with bare hands" (as STRAIN levels refuse to give the player any bullets), it is insane, at least for me. There are 5 imps to be punched in a very inconvenient small area with a lift. When they are killed (maximum health I had was 70%, but usually I ended with 1-30%) the players teleports himself to an open space with hitscanners, desperately looking for cover, ammo and health.

Any other suggestions?

[xit-vono]

If I recall correctly there was a level in Icarus near the end that has some severe ammo problems so perhaps that should be a contender.

[Erik]

vdgg said:

level 28 from STRAIN.

Not to mention that it is one of the ugliest and most poorly constructed levels included in any decent megawad. That pretty much makes me instaquit or cheat when i die in it.

[Kyka]

I originally said "Smedley" until I read the thread properly. :0

But now, thinking about it, Doom2 map 29 was pretty tough.

Though probably not for good speedrunners.

Several of the levels from Thy Flesh Consumed can be pretty hard from pistol starts too. Particularly the one that has the central teleporter in sludge and each side of this teleporter takes you to a different side of the map. And there is a Cyberdemon right at the end. It starts off as this Mountain pass walkway, and you soon arrive at this building that looks like a fort. Is it E4M4 I am thinking of?

[Ariander]

It's E4M6.

[vdgg]

xit-vono said:

If I recall correctly there was a level in Icarus near the end that has some severe ammo problems so perhaps that should be a contender.

It must be level 28 - Excavations.
Surely, I just tried it and managed to beat it after about 15 tries, only after recalling where the backpack is and after choosing somewhat weird route. When I played it 2 years ago, it was on HMP and that meant 13 pain elementals less...

Erik said:

Not to mention that it is one of the ugliest and most poorly constructed levels included in any decent megawad.

Speaking about ugliness, what about levels 12 and 25 from Memento Mori? But I must have felt more or less the same, I never liked this level, usually playing a "mini-episode" from map 20/21 to 27. Judging by his two maps (2 and 28), Bjorn Hermans had very original ideas, but someone should have helped him express them in a better way.

[printz]

There's actually MAP22 of Doom2.wad as the hardest from a pistol start on plain UV, followed by MAP23.

[Ichor]

Some real tough ones in Heretic:

E4M1
E4M6
E4M7
E4M9
E5M1
E5M2
E5M4 (good luck with this one)
E5M5
E6M2

There are some hard ones in the first three (like E1M9 and E2M6), but the expansion episodes are a lot harder.

[Erik]

printz said:

There's actually MAP22 of Doom2.wad as the hardest from a pistol start on plain UV, followed by MAP23.

MAP22 isn't so bad if you know about the 2 secrets at the start.

[printz]

and if you're a good Doom player.

[TimeOfDeath]

smedley pistol start is really easy - just run into the wall to the left of the cyber, he wakes up and moves away from the wall, then you quickly run down the stairs before he starts shooting. That doesn't work on nightmare or -fast, though.

[Lord_Z]

I remember spending a lot of time trying to pistol start level 16 and 17 of Evilution. It took me awhile to beat them but they are some fun levels.

[everett1911]

Episode 4, map 2 in ultimate doom.