Invulnerability Spheres in Deathmatch?

[40oz]

What do you think?

I know some players will be able to score up to 20 kills completely unscathed, but what if it were treated like a BFG? Of course it would be useless to put it in a damaging sector or hidden behind crushers, I guess it would be more necessary to put it in an area that would be arguably time consuming to escape, so the player only gets about 10-15 seconds to make a use out of it?

What do you think would be the best method? A really 'out of the way' hallway? Really slow moving elevators?

[alien8]

Or put it somewhere that has an element of danger and/or time-out-in-the-open to get to it.

For example (and not to blow my own horn), I put a Doomsphere out in the open on a small platform that requires three well timed jumps over insta-death lava to get to. If you're interested, it's map D2IG23 from the IGPack for Skulltag.

[DuckReconMajor]

Well, as you probably know, there are no secrets in multiplayer. One person finds it, then in a matter of minutes, everyone knows where it is and decides to try and camp it.

I don't know how you'd eliminate camping. People would cram into your hallway or elevator in one big bloody traffic-jam game of king of the hill. Plus, unlike BFG camping, you can't kill someone with an invuln sphere.

[esselfortium]

I like BFG and powerup pickups in deathmatch where you're completely exposed to fire through a big long window as you run helplessly across a corridor to get it. These can also be set up with the corridor raised up a bit from the adjacent room, so the window is on its floor but is at eye level for people outside, so they can easily shoot into it but it's harder to shoot out from inside.

[myk]

It should make FFA cheaper than usual but in a 1vs1 it can be cool if placed strategically because it doesn't normally respawn. You can create an initial round where the two players race to it to get a frag advantage from it, or where the invulnerable one hunts the other.

[dew]

my initial thought was: no. fucking. way.

but then, if you want an unusual feel in that map, why the hell not? there's no need for drastic traps, just give the opponent a chance to sweep bfg, blue armor and stuff on the other side of the map. then, if he hides long enough, he'll be the one with advantage. the map should be maze-ish or at least have lots of cover.

[Erik]

Only in an 1on1 map that is not intended for altdeath play. And only in a pretty large map where the player who loses the invuln race can try to play a hiding game for a while. In ffa it would just be annoying, not to mention in altdeath...

[myk]

The -altdeath parameter might work as well with it. Keep in mind invulnerability and partial invisibility don't respawn even in that mode. In fact, in the early days Map11, which has an invulnerability sphere beyond the red door in that caged secret area, got a reputation as an -altdeath level. One guy would get the invulnerability, and the other guy would have a good amount of space and hiding places to avoid him.

It works better in the standard behavior where each player starts in a defined location according to the player number, as opposed to like in ZDaemon where your starting location might be random (previously starting as a spectator.) Because if they're fixed, you can make sure one guy gets the invulnerability and the other guy some other advantage, initially.

[Erik]

Oh, invulns don't respawn in altdeath. Then nevermind. I still wouldn't want it in any kind of ffa though.

[Vermil]

Cerintally, if there was some way that other players could tell if someone had it. But otherwise, I'm not so sure.

[Cybershark]

I'm generally against it.

If it's something that's fairly easily accessible then you have one of two problems:
(a) the guy who gets there first gets an advantage in frags.
(b) if it's a respawning item then it gets camped and the guy gets even more frags.

Personally if I were to place one - and I never did so far in a single one of my DM maps - then I'd go with the same seriously-out-of-the-way approach you suggested. Have it take a long-ass time to acquire and return to the main game area, so that the advantage of it is somewhat offset and the player does not get to use it for it's full duration.

But it's nice to see it every so often in an FFA pack, just for the novelty.

DuckReconMajor said:

Plus, unlike BFG camping, you can't kill someone with an invuln sphere.

Maybe not directly due to weapons fire, but you could certainly cause them to die.

dew said:

my initial thought was: no. fucking. way.

but then, if you want an unusual feel in that map, why the hell not? there's no need for drastic traps, just give the opponent a chance to sweep bfg, blue armor and stuff on the other side of the map. then, if he hides long enough, he'll be the one with advantage. the map should be maze-ish or at least have lots of cover.

OKAY! We are sooooo doing this for next month's Zdaemon tournaments! :D

[dew]

Cybershark said:

OKAY! We are sooooo doing this for next month's Zdaemon tournaments! :D

hah, the walls have ears around here! :) well, let's wait and see what comes out of this. might work as a filler against the next NS grandslam.

Cybershark said:

Maybe not directly due to weapons fire, but you could certainly cause them to die.

oh. picking the invul would teleport you on a slow moving lift in a cramped shaft... and the opponent would have a few seconds for a coup-de-grace telefrag. or, in the case of an unlucky spawn, just run as hell.

edit: brokened tags, bleh.

[Bucket]

I have invulnerability spheres in a number of maps I've done. Sometimes I put them in remote places so that during a real match you'd only get a few seconds advantage. I also had the idea of putting one in a slow crusher trap so that, at best, you'd waste the power-up if you got caught.

I think you need a unique sense of flow and balance to get away with things like that. But hell - if you can do that, you could probably even make a pistols only map fun.

[40oz]

esselfortium said:

I like BFG and powerup pickups in deathmatch where you're completely exposed to fire through a big long window as you run helplessly across a corridor to get it. These can also be set up with the corridor raised up a bit from the adjacent room, so the window is on its floor but is at eye level for people outside, so they can easily shoot into it but it's harder to shoot out from inside.

I made something like that in a map I made, but it was with a BFG. you run across a set of pillars, the last one being the BFG, the BFG is a lift that lowers down to a cage at the floor where the players would most likely be fighting. The player is trapped in a cramped area that would be impossible to dodge rockets and SSG fire until the lift goes back up. But being exposed to enemy fire against your will does not really apply to invulnerabilty.

Bucket said:

I think you need a unique sense of flow and balance to get away with things like that. But hell - if you can do that, you could probably even make a pistols only map fun.

Hmm.. I thought that would be near impossible but I think that could be done. What if every player reluctantly is spawned under a fast moving crusher, that way everyone has to kill each other with 30% health? From there it's basically shooting zombiemen. Then there could be a chaingun positioned the same you'd position a bfg in a normal deathmatch map. Heh!

[Bucket]

Nah... I'd say if I were forced to make a fun pistol map, I'd need the following things:

1) Plenty of barrels
2) No health or armor
3) Offensive powerups only

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think a barrel blast counts as a kill. The idea is to break the tedium with a nice, powerful strategic weapon. I was going to say lava, to make sure no one ever has too much health, but natural deaths only make the match longer. Of course, with a source port it would be easier to concoct traps that give you points. Then we have the next logical step: a deathmatch megawad made entirely of traps.

[40oz]

Saw DM