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Maes

1.300.000 Iraqis dead since 2003 ?!

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Children over there are dying left, right and center just due to sanctions, nevermind conflict. I think the numbers Amnesty International came up with was 20,000 just between October and November of 2003.

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Maes said:

1.300.000 Iraqis dead

They might be dead, but they have democracyâ„¢.

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Mr. Freeze said:

Because we are going around and herding people into camps where they are shaved, experimented on, killed, and dumped in mass graves.


You (well, your elected representatives anyway) are doing the closest thing possible with means and scale such that maintaining a facade of "democracy" and "inherent righteousness" is still possible.

Doublethink at its best.

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Csonicgo said:

minus the "experimented on" (although maybe Abu Ghraib might fit) That's exactly what's happened.


Because Abu Ghraib is representative of the entire US Military.

Maes said:

You (well, your elected representatives anyway) are doing the closest thing possible with means and scale such that maintaining a facade of "democracy" and "inherent righteousness" is still possible.

Doublethink at its best.


(Citation Needed)

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Scuba Steve said:

George Walker Bush's presidency was an absolute failure.


George Bush was awesome. Not perfect by any means, but by far the best presidential candidate at the time.

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Scuba Steve said:

George Walker Bush's presidency was an absolute failure.

QFT. It seriously feels like he was just a tool being used for others' means.

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Scuba Steve said:

George Walker Bush's presidency was an absolute failure.


Maybe from our perspective, but I bet his administration, the military and white supremacists think it was great.

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Mr. Freeze said:

Because we are going around and herding people into camps where they are shaved, experimented on, killed, and dumped in mass graves.

Fucking moron.

Yes, because that's exactly what happened with the Khmer Rouge, or the Armenian Genocide. Unless people are being systematically and methodically exterminated, it's not even a travesty!

Fucking moron.

Mr. Freeze said:

George Bush was awesome. Not perfect by any means, but by far the best presidential candidate at the time.

Hahahaha.

Also, the "lesser of two evils" argument is terrible.

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Visplane Overflow said:

You guys are all too left-wing. George Bush was the best choice, anyone can see that. There's just this 'hate Bush' bandwagon that everybody wants to get on.

I'm a moderate.

Only someone as incompetent as George Bush could think he did any kind of good for the United States.

More importantly, the argument that George Bush was the "best choice" is moot because Al Gore (nor anyone else) was never the president of the United States from 2001-2009. Judging Bush on his own leadership, I can't see how anyone with any connection to reality could see this country better off after his terms as president.

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All of you are talking before thinking. If we hadn't declared war the problem wouldn't just go away like that. Now George Bush wasn't my favorite president of all time or anything, but he didn't do anything wrong (sort of). People started "Bush-hating" because our country is in a bad situation and they wanted someone to blame, so they picked the president. Nothing good has come from Obama yet, and I can't see anything good coming from him in the near future. Be rational. If we hadn't moved into Iraq Al Qeata (however you spell it) would still be at large and Sadam Hussein and Osama Bin Ladin would still be out there, killing thousands of Iraqis every day. And of course we would still have the terrorist problem in America. If we move out of Iraq the bad people won't suddenly stop what they're doing and leave us alone.

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Visplane Overflow said:

You guys are all too left-wing. George Bush was the best choice, anyone can see that. There's just this 'hate Bush' bandwagon that everybody wants to get on.

You're an idiot.

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Breadrobber said:

Sadam Hussein and Osama Bin Ladin would still be out there, killing thousands of Iraqis every day.

You don't understand the difference between Afghanistan and Iraq do you?

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Mr. Freeze said:
George Bush was awesome. Not perfect by any means, but by far the best presidential candidate at the time.

No, 2000 John McCain was probably the best candidate at the time. If he had ran last year instead of 2008 John McCain, he'd probably be President right now...

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Bank said:

You don't understand the difference between Afghanistan and Iraq do you?


It doesn't make a difference where they were, they would still be around.

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Breadrobber said:

All of you are talking before thinking.

An ironic statement considering the rest of your post.

If we hadn't declared war the problem wouldn't just go away like that.

I doubt there would be those 1.3 million people dead.

Now George Bush wasn't my favorite president of all time or anything, but he didn't do anything wrong (sort of).

Aside from the Iraq war, there were about 900 other things he did wrong that I strongly disagree with. I'd say he did plenty wrong.

People started "Bush-hating" because our country is in a bad situation and they wanted someone to blame, so they picked the president.


We were in a bad situation because of Bush and his administration, and they just kept making things worse.

Nothing good has come from Obama yet, and I can't see anything good coming from him in the near future. Be rational.

He's only been in office 6 months. He's only 1/8th of the way through his term. At this time in his first term, Bush had spent about 100 days of it on vacation. At least Obama's been doing something. Also, I'm liking some of the steps they're taking on the economic crisis, so I'd say that something good has come from him...though at this point it's really too early to see.

If we hadn't moved into Iraq Al Qeata (however you spell it) would still be at large and Sadam Hussein and Osama Bin Ladin would still be out there, killing thousands of Iraqis every day.

Wait, what? Do you seriously still believe that there was a connection between Al-Queda and Saddam Hussein? You mean even after most of the Republican Party along with the Bush administration themselves admitted that was based on misinformation? (Whoops). Also, as far as they know, Osama IS still out there. He was never caught. And Al-Queda is still active.

Also, Saddam Hussein was the most powerful secular leader in the Middle-East. He had considerably modernized Iraq to the point that it was almost an industrial nation. He may have been a genocidal tyrant, but killing him and destroying the Iraqi government did a lot more harm than keeping him there would have. Now the religious nuts have come out of the woodwork and are killing everything in sight.

And of course we would still have the terrorist problem in America.


Yes, I remember back 10 years ago when you couldn't go more than 10 feet without running into a terrorist...

What the Hell are you talking about?

If we move out of Iraq the bad people won't suddenly stop what they're doing and leave us alone.

Well now that we've destabilized their government and gotten rid of the one guy scary enough to keep it running, no they won't. We've completely fucked over the Middle-East, making it an impossible problem we may never get out of. And that's all because of Bush. Yay.

So where the Hell did all these neo-con apologists come from?

CODOR said:

No, 2000 John McCain was probably the best candidate at the time. If he had ran last year instead of 2008 John McCain, he'd probably be President right now...

Agreed. I was actually hoping he'd win in 2000.

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Breadrobber said:

It doesn't make a difference where they were, they would still be around.


Beside the fact that Osama Bin Laden is a Saudi Arabian, and that he is still around along with Al-Qaeda; nothing has happened but shit getting stirred up in two parts of the world, only one of those places being even connected to attacks made on the United States in 2001. And may I remind you that Operation Iraqi Freedom, i.e., the Coalition forces invasion of Iraq, was under the pretense of the elimination of Weapons of Mass Destruction. Weapons that were never found. Allegations of a link between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda have been scrutinized, in fact the 9/11 Commission Report states that Bin Laden had been sponsoring anti-Saddam islamists in Kurdistan.

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Danarchy said:

An ironic statement considering the rest of your post.

Well if you were thinking you might have replied differently

I doubt there would be those 1.3 million people dead.

If left unchecked those 1.3 millions would've died anyways. And it's the military who's being reckless and killing civilians and whatnot.

Aside from the Iraq war, there were about 900 other things he did wrong that I strongly disagree with. I'd say he did plenty wrong.

You're one of the left-wing voters who approves of Obama's 700 billion dollar spending sprees, aren't you?

We were in a bad situation because of Bush and his administration, and they just kept making things worse.


While the Bush administration wasn't very good, it's not the sole factor in our country's current condition.

He's only been in office 6 months.


And so far all he's done is pass useless bills, spend money, and fail to shutdown Guantanamo Bay.

Wait, what? Do you seriously still believe that there was a connection between Al-Queda and Saddam Hussein?

I didn't say that there was, I said that he'd still be causing problems.

As far as we know, Osama IS still out there.

I thought he was dead. My bad. Oh well, he's not terrorizing people that we know of for the time being.

Al Qeada is still active.


But it's much more controlled now.

Saddam Hussein may have been a genocidal tyrant, but killing him and destroying the Iraqi government did a lot more harm than keeping him there would have.

I never really approved of that, but if a new, non-oppressive government can take it's place Iraq should recover.

Yes, I remember back 10 years ago when you couldn't go more than 10 feet without running into a terrorist...

What the Hell are you talking about?

I'm saying that we could've had a dozen more 9/11s happen.

[B]We've completely fucked over the Middle-East, making it an impossible problem we may never get out of.[B]

What the hell are you smoking? Reality check: the Middle-East was already a shithole before the war. There was brainwashed terrorists and genocide abound. The whole area was fucked over. If handled right, the Middle-East can recover, but if we just pull out and let things keep going, it'll get worse.

Fuck politics. I hate everything about the subject. I'm moving to Australia to get away from this country before idiots tear it apart 10 years from now.

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So we have a body count, but do we know exactly how they died? Do the articles in question distinguish between combatants and civilians? Do they list how they died and who killed them?

I'm not saying 1.3 million people dead isn't an atrocity, but I don't think we shot or bombed all of those people directly. While we are responsible for what happens in Iraq, most of the violence carried out on Iraqis is caused by other Iraqis or insurgent forces as I understand it.

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Breadrobber said:

I'm moving to Australia to get away from this country before idiots tear it apart 10 years from now.

It's much nicer here. The only things we have to worry about are our public transport systems being on time, our ailing public health system not having enough hospital beds, and our Prime Minister selling out all our primary industries to China behind our backs. Oh, and mandatory internet censorship.

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