What annoys you about DVII-1?

[Doom Marine]

Okay, in the revision process for DVII Second Edition. I played through the old levels on UV, and didn't like what I saw in many instances, especially Map13: Eagle's Nest.

With narrow ledges, ascending heights, and revenant ambushes from behind, it was an exercise in frustration than feel-good play. WTF was I thinking?

The gameplay in DVII-1 reflected how I was as Doomer years ago. Coming back to it, I'm not the Doomer I once was in 2008. Nowadays I enjoy strolling through stuff that's easygoing to slightly difficult, but doesn't beat me to death with a leadpipe... examples are AV, or the original Scythe (Scythe 2's later level is rape).

As a result, Map13's gameplay is TOTALLY liquidated. To describe: the climb up the mountain is now 2 minutes long and has no archviles, and two revenants AT MOST on UV. It felt pretty good to climb up that huge face and totally dominate shit.

I've asked this before, but this requires its own thread: What annoys you about DVII-1? Be honest. Don't worry you're not gonna hurt any feelings because I don't have any.

[ArmouredBlood]

I'm glad you're changing eagle nest, it was one of the worst in gameplay imo. Others I think you should work on are the giant space station before stargate and stargate itself. The space station is just so huge, mono-thematic, and unintuitive in some parts it took me at least an hour and a half to finish. The micro-detailing looks awesome and weaves together well, in fact too well, I could barely tell some parts apart. Some variance in themes per sectors and some SIGNS would be nice, maybe even a map texture ;) The fights themselves were fine though, challenging yet beatable.

Next up, stargate was kind of a weird map in there, made a little sense after the station but didn't feel connected to the next map (Was it minas morgul or the unholy cathedral? I've only played up to unholy cathedral once ...) the gameplay felt a little hokey, some chaingunners on cliffs here, some more zombies and chaingunners there, a few revenants, some arachnos, some mancubi ... it just felt so simple after all the space station fights. And then there's the fact I couldn't find the switch to lower the block cutting me off from the exit fenced area, unless that part glitches in skulltag. And the music ... it just didn't fit. I would've put that in something like an anthropology museum gone to life. Maybe look at some mummy 1 & 2 soundtracks.

From what I got to in unholy cathedral, I didn't like a few things too. Like the berserk tunnel -.- That thing just chewed me up and spit me out every single time, it's all tyson timing and no possibility of dodging, with a large amount of luck that the monsters in back of you started infighting. I hate to sound like I'm whining it's too hard but maybe giving 200% armor instead of 100% would work better for each regen, if only on HMP and lower. Also the chapel area you need to shoot to open up was very annoying, I searched what parts of the map I could for at least 20 minutes before noticing it was gray and just shot it. Perhaps some sort of bait-shooting-activated setup would work better, say an imp in an alcove that has a window that opens after the player crosses a line.

With all the bad stuff, I'll balance it out by saying you're first 2 action levels were great, and the japanese mountain level was cool if a bit annoying in the fights. All the other maps I've played awed me, they were real nice to look at if not play ;)

[gggmork]

skipmaps- you don't have much time before hitting a tally screen so hard to type idclev## unless you pause (plus have to remember which are real maps or add that big number on screen to your idclev).

That one map with all the trees looks great but visuals can get in the way of gameplay like trying to find paths through the trees or getting lost (on any map in general) can be annoying. Similar at the beginning of (crows nest?) had lots of shrubbery visually blocking which looked nice but was annoying for gameplay, also popup enemies require memorization. But I remember liking the slaughtery top of crows nest.

I think 31 was the only map I beat seriously so far (since small slaughtermaps appeal to me more where you can't get lost easy) but watched demos for others or played more casually. I remember playing holy cathedral and couldn't figure out what the hell to do, like how to enter the pianoish area or something, but the demo(s) were awesome to watch. I really like the epic feel of 12 with lord of the ring esque armies. Also (unholy cathedral? edit: i mean clerics on 23) that one battle with an enormous army of warping pseudo-imps-whatever-they-are was epic. And 29 music + general feel was great. I guess including dv1 was an ok joke but not sure if that increases the file size a lot now that the joke was already told (this wads file size is like 173,596 kb..).

[ducon]

Maybe that it’s hard to find one’s way, even in the map.

[Devalaous]

I personally cant stand anything to do with HR-style gameplay, I find no fun in ten million monsters just dumped there for the sake of "slaughter"

I like a good balance of level design and difficulty. Alien Vendetta was fantastic in the earlier levels, I beleive I got up to level 9 or so legitimately on Ultra-Violence, and it felt like the the limits of great design, yet having just the right amount of challenge. Whenever I play a map that has me wading through tedious monsters, I tend to just quit back to the desktop, otherwise I get drowsy from boredom. Even if the level has amazing design (Scythe 2), it gets ruined if the gameplay isnt fun.

As such, after playing the first DV, and ending up IDDQD'ing to get past the monster rape that was making me yawn, the level design that normally would have made my jaw drop simply got a weak smile. I dont even see how it can even be finished legitimatly. I skipped DVII after hearing it became like HR, and I hope it becomes much more like classic Doom. I dont know where people started thinking Doom was purely about slaughtering hordes of monsters, but in my eyes that needs to stop.

I have high hopes for this revision, as pretty much everything new I download now is HR gameplay. Urgh.

[Phml]

The detail and architecture are, at the same time, the things I enjoyed most and least in DV2.

On one hand, that's some impressive scenery and atmosphere you have there. Only a few other doom mods look that good, and none with so many varied themes.

On the other hand, it feels like the visuals are just here for eye candy, not for gameplay. Even worse, sometimes the architecture is so complex it's confusing and detracts from gameplay.

Many maps also suffer from unintuitive switch hunts, without much visual feedback - this ties together with my previous point. With so much stuff on the screen, it's harder to follow what's going on. The Unholy Cathedral is the worse offender in my opinion.

In general, I've found DV2 maps to be a pain in the ass the first playthroughs, but enjoyable after a while. Fun if you know what you're doing, tedious if you don't.

Another pet peeve : tons of easter eggs everywhere just ruin any ambiance you built up. Specifically, all these video games villains in Hell's Vendetta, or the chuck norris etc. posters in map31. Frankly, it just looks childish... Possibly worse, even, because the rest of the wad is just so impressive, so that stuff makes it end up like Mona Lisa with a penis doodle on the head.

For reference, my favorite levels were the first one (which has none of the flaws I mentioned - it's short, linear, fastpaced, great architecture but nothing confusing about it) and whichever level it is you're running from balrogs.

I hope you're either not going to tone down the fights too much, or are going for a complete architecture overhaul, as frankly with the above flaws and without the slaughterfests this would have ended up as Hellcore 2.0 for me - run through it once in noclip to check out the architecture, then delete from the harddrive and never play again.

That being said, it could be that this wad just isn't my thing. I didn't like Eternal Doom either, and tons of folks like it.

[Ariander]

It's fine and good difficulty for me until I get to Map12, then it becomes alot harder.

[Insane_Gazebo]

I'll admit, I actually enjoyed every single map of DVII, except maybe the first two - but I think that was more their style, texture/architecture wise that I didn't like. I guess things were a touch too colourful to me :)

I believe the only section I had any trouble in, was the huge fight in the middle of Unholy Cathedral - in particular, around your snazzy church organ, and the lost souls that come out of it. Those little guys got me killed more than anything else, simply because they'd get me stuck.

Normally I'd blame myself for running into enemies like this, but because of their placement, they had a habit of descending from the top of the organ into that gap behind it, (which was one of the few good pieces of cover in the room) and thusly, I wouldn't see them before I suddenly discovered that I couldn't move, and quickly be killed as they crowded around my head, sometimes just out of view. But still, this ruins the great scene created by them emerging from the pipes, which sucks...

Oh, and as Phml mentioned, Unholy Cathedral was extremely difficult to navigate. Normally I don't have trouble figuring out how to get around people's maps, but I recall getting stuck more than once on that map, scratching my head as to what I'd missed. Couldn't hurt to give the players a few hints as to where to go 'next', depending on what route they take etc.

[Patrick]

KILL THAT GREEN LEVEL WITH A RAKE!!!!

[Jodwin]

That China-esque map. Both because it kills slower computers and because it takes ages to find where to go even though it's much smaller than the silver space station map or Unholy Cathedral are.

Unholy Cathedral should also be a bit more obvious, but that China map takes the cake as being the most frustrating thing in the whole wad.

[Demonologist]

After Holy Hell - nothing at all... =)

If seriously, the only map that really rapes me is map22 - you've got a time-limit and a huge pain in the ass with all those archies and mancubi. I was ready to crush my monitor when I played this map for the 1st time. =D

Maps 03 & 21 are rather complicated indeed, but I think it's OK since they're quite unusual so I didn't get annoyed while playing them (heh), though I'd say that map19 should be simplified a bit - I got lost in this kingdom of metal soon enough...

[pcorf]

Please get rid of all those annoying skip maps for Zdoom users by including a MAPINFO entry in DVii. Boom users can still suffer from skip maps though.

[Doom Marine]

pcorf said:

Please get rid of all those annoying skip maps for Zdoom users by including a MAPINFO entry in DVii. Boom users can still suffer from skip maps though.

There won't be any skip maps because DVII-2 is turning into a 32 real map megawad.

[Pure Hellspawn]

Doom Marine said:

There won't be any skip maps because DVII-2 is turning into a 32 real map megawad.

Holy Shit. I cannot wait to see the end product.

Anyways, my favorite map was map 12. It really gave me that "unique" environment feeling, like two armies battling each other (though one of the armies is one person, me.) I also enjoyed the music, it really fit the map.

[Demonologist]

Doom Marine said:

There won't be any skip maps because DVII-2 is turning into a 32 real map megawad.

Oh... and this is ONE HELL OF A SURPRISE! Looking forward to it...

[Doom Marine]

Patrick said:

KILL THAT GREEN LEVEL WITH A RAKE!!!!

Yeah, thought about that. Gonna put it through the wrecking ball. By the time I'm finished, it's going to be a new level made from the parts of the original map12.

[Demonologist]

Doom Marine said:

Yeah, thought about that. Gonna put it through the wrecking ball.

Why??? This level is truly awesome! I think you should let it be... =)

[Mr. Freeze]

The green map.

THE FUCKING GREEN MAP.

[JadedLexi]

Jodwin said:

That China-esque map. Both because it kills slower computers and because it takes ages to find where to go.

Agreed.

[Patrick]

Honestly though, that green map is fun for slaughterfests, and I think that UV should still retain it's insanity, because despite it's ridiculous gameplay, it is quite beautiful. I'd suggest expanding that green crystal cavern area and re-work the inside of the fortress a little and I imagine it will be VERY awesome. Or get rid of the fortress and make it all green crysal caverns.

As far as the China map goes, keep it. Anyone who didn't like it is on crack. Again, it had excellent design. My suggestion is get rid of some of the trees and simply add more buildings. The architecture of that level was superb as well, I'd hate to see it gone.

Alternatively, hell's vendetta was a fucking bitch, those stupid images on the wall of game characters were out of place. And the 6 billions monsters. That level needs to die a terrible death and never come back.

[punnyone]

map 3 needs to have less trees (although this has already been mentioned)

map 12 needs to lose the hundreds of enemies in the hallways

map 19 - the rooms need to be more diverse. Every room had similar themes, (computer station, cryogenics, engines) Why not make some of the rooms have crew quarters, docking stations, etc or have some sectors be differently colored and designed.

map 21 - the framerate needs to be fixed in the cathedral area


Other than that, I like the game and as long as framerate and enemies are toned down and map 19 is made more interesting, then I have no problem with it.

[Ismaele]

I suggest to read my review of "Deus Vult 2" at "Outpost of Doom 2" and look for flaws in every department (gameplay, graphics and difficulty).

[Doom Marine]

Ismaele said:

I suggest to read my review of "Deus Vult 2" at "Outpost of Doom 2" and look for flaws in every department (gameplay, graphics and difficulty).

That was one of the first things I went to for complaints about DVII-1, heh.

[Doom Marine]

Patrick said:

Alternatively, hell's vendetta was a fucking bitch, those stupid images on the wall of game characters were out of place. And the 6 billions monsters. That level needs to die a terrible death and never come back.

I'm considering replacing those images with more appropriate artworks. The whole premise of that level is to expose the player to six billion monsters, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

As for many complaints about the mish-mashing of themes in the level lineup, DVII-1 originally was going to be a 32-map megawad with a continuous plot, but I didn't create those levels in sequential order and released what was done at the time. What I'm trying to say is, there is an actual physical progression going from level to level. The full arc of the DVII level's progression doesn't just go from tech, Asian, green... and so forth in a psuedorandom manner. There was supposed to be a logical transition going from one level to the next, take the progression from the Stargate to Egyptian map to Hell for example.

DVII-2 is going to totally justify the transition from one theme to the next.

[Patrick]

Doom Marine said:

DVII-2 is going to totally justify the transition from one theme to the next.

Excellent. It would be a shame to see the green map go, just make all the enemies somewhat more optional to kill...

[Khaoscythe]

Hmmmm...I'll only cover the maps that I find myself playing the most these days. This is only some of the aspects I wish to cover, I'll have to playtest some more and come up with new routes for more info:

======
Map12:
======
-Add an extra fight or two in the final area before the HK/Cybie mob. Have them trigger when you obtain the keys upon hitting both switches on each side...that way it gives the player something to do in that room, and maybe be able to use those random crushers to their advantage.

-Drop the imps by about 25-50 in that first hallway. You could have 2 Archies at the back end of the imp mob on top of the 2 that wait afterward (putting the RL alcoves to some good use). Allow the player to focus on their RL with the newly placed fights (if implemented)...otherwise that over-abundance of rocket ammo is not necessary.

This map doesn't necessarily need to die off...just have to place certain limitations and additions to it...

======
Map21:
======
-I noticed that when you activate the main hall shortcut, as you reach the pipe organ stairs you get caught up by the invisible lowering wall...it is possible to suffer instant death at the hands of the Cybie if you're unlucky...any way of ridding that or making the wall drop faster (unless this was intentional) would be fine to prevent random deaths.

-Don't get me wrong, but it IS possible to survive that Fishmouth area with JUST the Tyson box...it has been done. But yeah, the fact that the Tyson boxes keep 'spawning' due to the voodoo dolls does present a high difficulty in maintaining your weapons if you play with auto weapon switch on (thus forcing the player to shut it off).

-Cut down the Lost Soul numbers in the pipe organ main fight by about 25-50...have their spawn rate lowered to prevent over-crowding and, thus, lag on some systems. Another idea would be to have them spawn from the wall pentagrams around the main hall...but don't take my word for this...it's just a thought.

-The shoot-able switch for the chapel area is fine from what I see...maybe make the target a bit wider to make it easier to hit on the fly during runs.

-Keep the general structure of this map intact...I enjoy it's diversity and the many route possibilities a player can take. It is possible to beat this map legit...albeit extremely difficult...

======
Map22:
======
-Extend the hallway where the Afrits come from just a bit to buy the player an extra 15 seconds or so to run through the map (as far as Max is concerned). There are a few places where they will rape the player with impunity if they aren't fast enough otherwise...

-Keep the speed shortcut...it's a perk, you should know of what I speak of...

...

As far as Hell's Vendetta...all I ask is to keep that little 'trick' I made you and Belial aware of intact...;)...My target time is still a work in progress and I feel that it is still a possibility despite the risk of insanity xP

Not for nothing, but I enjoyed ScytheII-28...then again, that's just my preference...and not everyone shares that sheer pleasure for slaughter.

...I'll continue play-tests when I'm away from RL duties...there is plenty of room for improvement for DVII in a whole. What I've stated is nothing more than my own opinion...

-Scythe-

[Do0minat0r]

What annoyed me:

-Map03's framerate (too many trees!)

-Map13 (this was already mentioned though)

-Map29 being entirely optional

-Map30 having nothing to it

-The annoying "skip maps"

-Incorrect secret level returns (secret exit on Map29, secret level(s) return to Map19)

-Secret exit should be bigger challenge to find (and not a way to skip an entire level - see previous Map29 remark)

-I enjoyed the gameplay (for the most part), but make it more suitable for a larger, more diverse audience.

I know lots of this has been mentioned before, but I wanted to mention it as reminder/also to accurately show how many people are annoyed by these features.

I actually haven't played DVII-1 in full yet, and probably won't now with the revision in process, but of what I did see/play, this is what stood out to me. Hope it helps. :)