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hardcore_gamer

Doom 2: The Master Levels is a pathetic excuse of a add-on pack.

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I just played Doom 2: The master levels recently and i must say that it is without a doubt the most pathetic offical level pack i have seen not just for Doom/Doom 2 but for any game i can think of in general. The levels are for the most part just plain horrible.

I mean the levels were not even made by Id Software, or even talented hobby level designers/Doom hackers for that matter (TNT was bought by Id, and they hired a couple of community mappers to make Plutonia). According to the retail case of PSX Final Doom (i played the Master levels that came with the PSX version of Final Doom) the Master Levels is actually a collection of maps made my the Doom mapping community. Now PSX Final Doom was released in 1996 and the Master levels themselfs are probably even older then that so there were not allot of very good community WADS back then compared to all of the stuff we have now (i am not saying there were NO good WADS back then, i am merely pointing out that finding something good back then was much harder then it is today) so most all of the maps in the Master levels are just some shitty 1994-1995 style maps that look extremely ugly. They are so ugly in fact that they almost make me regret creating that other thread were i bashed Doom 2 for it's level design because only now after having played this piece of shit can i truly start to appreciate the level of quality the game had compared to the Master levels.

The maps don't look like anything, the layouts make no sense, the detail is shit, the texture usage is shit, it is"typical" for the gameplay to be shit, Doom 2: The master Levels is just a mismash of shit.

I know this may sound very biased but i just don't understand it why Id would want to release something like this. .

Am i the only one feels this way?

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I have heard similar things to what you are saying about the Master levels, so you are clearly not the only one.

I have never actually played the Master Levels myself, so I can't really comment. Well, except for what I have already commented anyway.

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DuckReconMajor said:

teeth.wad is so cool


teeth.wad?

EarthQuake said:

I certainly don't share your opinion.


Well like i said, i played the Master Levels that came with PSX Final Doom so there are probably many levels missing. But if the levels from the PSX Final Doom are suppose to "the best of the bunch" from the Master Levels then the shitty levels that were not included with Final Doom would probably make me cough up blood.

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Having played both versions, I can tell you that there are a number of (crucial) levels missing from the PSX version (TEETH for one, Black Tower for another) and there are some fundamental differences between those that were included and the PC originals (monster placement in particular - Vesperas has no boss on the PSX for example).

Ultimately, the Master Levels add-on for the PC was pretty much shovelware, bundled as they were with something like 3000 other custom WADs plucked from the internet, all of them shite. The only reason any of the MLs were included in PSX Final Doom was because most of the TNT and Plutonia maps were beyond the PSX's puny power. They were there purely to make up the numbers.

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DuckReconMajor said:

teeth.wad is so cool

But very very hard. I can't go past the start.

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I played the Master Levels for the first time last year, having bought them on Steam. I couldn't believe how bad they were (with one or two honorable exceptions). I'd never read about them before and like an idiot I thought that Master meant the levels were made by real Doom Masters, the cream of the cream of level makers. And here was this ramshackle collection of bits and pieces scraped together from the net, the type of stuff that was given away on magazine covers at the time.

Most misleading title ever.

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Never bothered cross-checking, but weren't at least some of the Master Levels maps available for free as any other PWAD long before "they went pro" ? Perhaps with a different name?

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Maes said:

Never bothered cross-checking, but weren't at least some of the Master Levels maps available for free as any other PWAD long before "they went pro" ? Perhaps with a different name?


No, i think they were made in advance. Though all of the extra levels were probably out before the Master Levels were.

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hardcore_gamer said:

The maps don't look like anything, the layouts make no sense, the detail is shit, the texture usage is shit, it is"typical" for the gameplay to be shit, Doom 2: The master Levels is just a mismash of shit.

Weird, thats what I get when I play your maps.

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The master levels have a special place in my heart, I started out playing them on my playstation. I liked the levels all the levels, but didn't have too much fun on combine, catwalk, fistula, or subspace, compared to the others.

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hardcore_gamer said:

I mean the levels were not even made by Id Software, or even talented hobby level designers/Doom hackers for that matter (TNT was bought by Id, and they hired a couple of community mappers to make Plutonia).


What the hell you talking about? Sure, the Master Levels is no masterpiece. The fact, that it is a bunch of single levels instead of a complete mission makes it even worse.

But the designers are NOT some nobodys. The people, who built these maps are Tim Willits, Sverre Kvernmo, Chris Klie, Dr.Sleep, Tom Mustaine and Jim Flynn. Do you want to tell me, that these people where some nobodies back then?

Go search /idgames for these authors, or do a google search.

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The Express Elevator to Hell (teeth) was definetly a tough one. It took me a while to beat it but I enjoyed the challenge. Bad Dream was intimidating at first glance but ends up being kinda easy really. I thought it was kind of a neat idea at first but now it seems kinda silly. It's still awesome killing that many Cyberdemons so easily and quickly though. There's a couple levels (2 I think) that I haven't played yet since I've only played the Master Level's on PSX and Xbox but I intend to play them eventually. I still haven't got back to playing Plutonia 2 yet. I have long gaps in between my Doom playing times.

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OHHH I GET IT!

Being a "hardcore gamer" means you constantly bitch about everything you can and have nothing good to say. Like those idiots who insist on ordering expensive elaborate cocktails then spend the night complaining it's not like they had in Hong Kong or some other place they have never been.

Your own add-on PWADs haven't exactly garnered critical acclaim, and I for one am sick of your constant negativity. Do you even like Doom or are you just here to make yourself look better than other people who play videogames?

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Super Jamie said:

OHHH I GET IT!

Being a "hardcore gamer" means you constantly bitch about everything you can and have nothing good to say. Like those idiots who insist on ordering expensive elaborate cocktails then spend the night complaining it's not like they had in Hong Kong or some other place they have never been.

Your own add-on PWADs haven't exactly garnered critical acclaim, and I for one am sick of your constant negativity. Do you even like Doom or are you just here to make yourself look better than other people who play videogames?


Spot on...

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Super Jamie said:

Do you even like Doom or are you just here to make yourself look better than other people who play videogames?

I've noticed that the word "sucks" creates quite a flak whenever it's used as a near-honest opinion about a pwad. Even at Doomworld, which is/was infamously said (at least during the dedicated Newstuff chronicles) to be too objective on others' hard work :P

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Super Jamie said:

Your own add-on PWADs haven't exactly garnered critical acclaim


That is terrible logic. Am I not allowed to criticize a song because I can't play guitar?

And honestly, the masters levels aren't really that great. They have a few decent maps, but most of the time I just want something better.

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Super Jamie said:
Your own add-on PWADs haven't exactly garnered critical acclaim,[/B]


Out of the countless WADS that have been dumped into the /idgames how many have gathered critical acclaim? And my WADS got ok ratings by the way

And since when did i have to be master mapper to know what i like and don't like? Do film reviewers have to make movies to review them?

And there is also that tiny little fact that my levels are free so anyone who doesn't like them can simply throw them into the recycle bin while The Master Levels is an official Id Software product that you have to pay money for.

And the "but your maps suck and thus our criticism is worthelss" logic is also a very poor one. Why don't we just dismiss anything negative anyone says about a map/WAD from now on if that person is not an expert mapper?

kristus said:

How was his post any worse than yours?


I payed real money to get the Master Levels. It's not a free WAD it's a product, i have a right to be angry if find it to be trash.

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