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hardcore_gamer

Doom 2: The Master Levels is a pathetic excuse of a add-on pack.

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EarthQuake said:

I certainly don't share your opinion.


Same. Maybe I'm just sympathetic toward maps made by some very well known doomers but I think a lot of those maps are gold.

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hardcore_gamer said:
That was uncalled for.

Having played some maps of yours, I can see where he's coming from. I also recall dutch devil made a tribute level based on a master level, so he must appreciate at least some of them. If you're so loose with your critiques, you better be ready to take similar treatment on your work.

Also, timeline. Anyone expecting the Master Levels, released back in '95, to be as good as something like Plutonia 2 or Suspended in Dusk is an idiot. Compared to the mass of levels from '95, they are good, which makes their commercial status acceptable. You paid, you got stuff that was at least decent.

scalliano said:
Ultimately, the Master Levels add-on for the PC was pretty much shovelware, bundled as they were with something like 3000 other custom WADs plucked from the internet, all of them shite.

The Maximum DOOM bundle was the shovelware (and not all of it was shit, but wading through it is a mess), and that excluded the accompanying score or so Master Levels which were made by request specifically to give customers something fresh that guaranteed some quality per level. It makes much less sense now, of course, where we have fast connections and a well-organized community where getting quality levels is easy. In this context you can see how hardcore_gamer's rant sounds lame.

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myk said:

Anyone expecting the Master Levels, released back in '95, to be as good as something like Plutonia 2 or Suspended in Dusk is an idiot. Compared to the mass of levels from '95, they are good, which makes their commercial status acceptable.



Why is this so hard for people to figure out. The tools weren't as good, the knowledge of the game engine wasn't as good, and computers weren't as good. In '95 Doom editing was still a new frontier, and I think the Master Levels made a great companion to Doom2.
Besides hardcore_gamer, what were you doing in 1995? Learning addition and subtraction, or potty training? Have some respect for the authors and work that went into that shit.

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myk said:

[/B]Having played some maps of yours, I can see where he's coming from.


It took me a long time to learn how to use Doom Builder and make maps before i felt comfortable doing it (i have been making maps for more then 2 years now), and thus the quality of many of my WADS range from being average to being shit. But i have still made a fair number of decent WADS. And if you check the list of WADS released by me then you would see that while i may not be the greatest mapper the site has ever known i am not a horrible one either and i keeping getting better as time progresses.

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?search=1&field=author&word=Hardcore_gamer&sort=time&order=asc&page=1

myk said:
also recall dutch devil made a tribute level based on a master level, so he must appreciate at least some of them.


Like i said, i have only played the Master Levels that came with PSX Final Doom. If there are any levels on the PC version that are allot better then the ones in PSX Final Doom then i have not played them. What map did he recreate?

myk said:
If you're so loose with your critiques, you better be ready to take similar treatment on your work.


No problem. I believe in honest criticism.

myk said:
]Also, timeline. Anyone expecting the Master Levels, released back in '95, to be as good as something like Plutonia 2 or Suspended in Dusk is an idiot.


I never expected to be anything like Plutonia 2. But i still expected at least half decent levels and got almost none.

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Use3D said:

Why is this so hard for people to figure out. The tools weren't as good, the knowledge of the game engine wasn't as good, and computers weren't as good. In '95 Doom editing was still a new frontier, and I think the Master Levels made a great companion to Doom2.
Besides hardcore_gamer, what were you doing in 1995? Learning addition and subtraction, or potty training? Have some respect for the authors and work that went into that shit.


Like what myk and Use3D said. A lot happens in 14 years.

So yeah.

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hardcore_gamer said:

Like i said, i have only played the Master Levels that came with PSX Final Doom. If there are any levels on the PC version that are allot better then the ones in PSX Final Doom then i have not played them.


I feel like the Master Levels that were included in the PSX versions were just as good as the ones that weren't included. In fact, I prefer the levels on the PSX version a little bit better than their PC counterparts. Maybe it's just because I played them on the PSX first, but I think that the PSX exclusive material added to them as well. The only negative being no Archvile, Spider Mastermind and very little of the Baron Of Hell (Who isn't even in any of the Master Levels in the PSX Version, only one TNT level)and Mancubus.

For example, most of the maps that were included in the PSX version had d_runnin for music on the PC, in the PSX version they had ambient style music instead. This really changes the atmosphere for the level Geryon, which had d_ddtblu on the PC, one of my favorite songs in PC Doom II, to a creepy ambient track with whistling, starting quietly, then becoming the loudest thing you can hear. Probably the only song that I am creeped out by in a video game.

Not to mention PSX Final Doom only includes 13 out of the 20 levels, So you are not even getting the full set of Master Levels. There are some really good levels that were only on the PC, Namely BLACKTWR.WAD and TEETH.WAD, which I enjoyed very much. If you are judging only the levels on the PSX version, you should change your statement to "PSX Master Levels Suck" instead of the PC ones, because it is a hell of a difference between the two

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dutch devil said:

The truth sometimes stings, deal with it.


Really?

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?search=1&field=author&word=Hardcore_gamer&sort=time&order=asc&page=1

Like i said above, i have contributed my share of beginner shit WADS to the /idgames just like almost everybody else, but i have still made a number of decent WADS that a good number of people liked. And that's enough to leave me satisfied.

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Use3D said:

Why is this so hard for people to figure out. The tools weren't as good, the knowledge of the game engine wasn't as good, and computers weren't as good. In '95 Doom editing was still a new frontier, and I think the Master Levels made a great companion to Doom2.


Exactly this. Today many people know only one doom map editor, and thats DB. Give them a 1995 computer with DOS 6.x, vanilla doom and DEU, DCK or Deth in its full VGA glory, without that neat 3d editing mode.
Back then, there was no Dr Sleep, who made a neat Howto, compiling the map was a visible process, and let alone texture alignment was a pain in the ass.

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cybdmn said:

Back then, there was no Dr Sleep

<pedantry> Actually - there was </pedantry> :P

Judging fourteen year old wads by today's standards is pointless - they're always going to be found lacking.


EDIT - damn spilling errors.

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cybdmn said:

compiling the map was a visible process, and let alone texture alignment was a pain in the ass.


Agreed about texture alignment, but I always found computing the nodes to be fast, even on a 486 DX/40. I guess that built-in Math co-pro was really worth its salt (at least DEU required a math co-pro to run, or else using an 80387 emulator. No idea how slow that could be, but on the DX nodes built in a matter of seconds, and in some programs which had both Floating point emulation and FPU support, the speed difference could be upwards to 1:10).

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myk said:

The Maximum DOOM bundle was the shovelware (and not all of it was shit, but wading through it is a mess)

Indeed. I spent far too long trawling through that and now I can't even remember most of the good ones, heh. One of the few that sticks in my head is Sungod.wad, probably the best one on there (IMO).

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GreyGhost said:

<pedantry> Actually - there was </pedantry> :P


Well, i meant, there was Dr Sleep, but not his neat DB manual. ;-)

Maes said:

Agreed about texture alignment, but I always found computing the nodes to be fast, even on a 486 DX/40. I guess that built-in Math co-pro was really worth its salt (at least DEU required a math co-pro to run, or else using an 80387 emulator. No idea how slow that could be, but on the DX nodes built in a matter of seconds, and in some programs which had both Floating point emulation and FPU support, the speed difference could be upwards to 1:10).


It was fast, compared to compiling for Quake, right. But it needed enough time, that you could see it, at least Doomcad showed how it compiled sectors in a neat way.
Today compiling maps with vanilla restrictions goes in no time, DB does this every time, you changed something and switch to 3d mode.

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cybdmn said:

Give them a 1995 computer with DOS 6.x, vanilla doom and DEU


They wouldn't even know how to start the editor.

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Meh, texture alignment isn't such a bitch, especially if your mapping style involves careful non-splitting of linedefs. Often alignment can be ignored, and only in bad cases may it be addressed -- see the id maps. Even now, out of reflex, I'm manually aligning textures with Doom Builder :)

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Nes said:

They wouldn't even know how to start the editor.

Heh - some wouldn't know how to FIND the editor - let alone start it.

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Personally I like Master Levels a lot. It's well known that the psx version removes parts of the maps (compare E1 maps and the shitter version from PSX).
On Master Levels it also removed some of the best maps of the pack, perhaps because of their size (and difficult?).

Master Levels may look simple, but they look clean and have a solid gameplay. Also the level design and texture usage is among the best in official maps.

Personally I find them more enjoyable than modern vanilla wads like Plutonia 2 or other famous megawads.

I agree that it'd be better if the mod included some extra stuff like level names for the maps, an intermission pic using the cover art (it'd be added with an extra wad being loaded each time you run a wad with doom-it), and perhaps other extra skies (besides the starry one), but this last thing wasn't needed at all.

Of course each has his tastes.

Also the Master Levels box rocks, and the poster kick ass (still hanging in my room).

Back in the day it was released it was a good buy, not only it added this pack, poster, and collectible box, but also included Maximum DOOM. Cd-roms from these days that included many wads didn't include as much as Maximum DOOM, and they didn't have doom-it (which for the time, it was a commercial program). And to get the (maximum doom) wads yourself wasn't all that easy, internet was way more expensive than today.

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hardcore_gamer said:

It took me a long time to learn how to use Doom Builder


Heh!

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Vegeta said:

Personally I like Master Levels a lot. It's well known that the psx version removes parts of the maps...


The PSX version does change a lot, but I think most of the maps were untouched in design (for the master levels that is). The only things that were changed were the height of the levels (Because the PSX I guess couldn't handle tall levels?), changing the level Subspace to nighttime (which looks nicer IMO), and getting rid of some of the exclusive textures for more basic Doom/Doom II ones. Also, monster placement was heavily changed around in this version, such as no baron's or boss characters in the master levels episode (I sorely missed the cyberdemon in Versperas). And most obviously, no archvile.

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Mattfrie1 said:

getting rid of some of the exclusive textures for more basic Doom/Doom II ones


Did the Master Levels actually have new textures?

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Splatter said:

Did the Master Levels actually have new textures?


Not necessarily, but they swapped some of the Doom 1 textures for Doom 2 textures. Namely textures that were already in the previous PSX Doom and the Jaguar levels as well.

Levels that come to mind would be COMBINE.WAD, In the beginning room the computer monitors are changed to PSX exclusive animated ones. Also in the room before the blue key room, the scrolling UAC texture was removed and changed to a regular computer monitor texture. Also at the beginning of GERYON.WAD, the stone walls with vines are changed to plain gray stone walls.

So while not being exclusive textures, they definitely changed some of them. And yes, I do know I have way too much time on my hands. ;)

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Splatter said:

Did the Master Levels actually have new textures?

Only one that I know of for the PC version - a starry sky that appears in eight maps.

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GreyGhost said:

Only one that I know of for the PC version - a starry sky that appears in eight maps.

There's actually two different starry sky textures, even though it's hardly noticeable in play.

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cybdmn said:

Exactly this. Today many people know only one doom map editor, and thats DB. Give them a 1995 computer with DOS 6.x, vanilla doom and DEU, DCK or Deth in its full VGA glory, without that neat 3d editing mode.
Back then, there was no Dr Sleep, who made a neat Howto, compiling the map was a visible process, and let alone texture alignment was a pain in the ass.



... that doesn't change the fact that even back then there have been a considerable amount of levels that are a lot better than these so-called 'Master' levels.

I still like playing some old stuff (e.g. Cleimos, Sudtic, Teutic) but the Master levels are not on this list. They always left me cold. Some of them sure were decent creations for their time - but nothing special.

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Nes said:

They wouldn't even know how to start the editor.


Too true. (Un)fortunately for me, I was getting into computers shortly after DOS was becoming obsolete. But if I could have gotten a little help, I would've managed to figure it out.

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I must admit, without DB I'd be lost. I had a bit of experience with tools like WadEd (DOS) and WadAuthor back in the day, doing the usual stuff I assume we all did when we first got our mitts on an editor (ie big flat square rooms and mazes with shitloads of everything in them), but DB's interface is a lot more intuitive than editors of old, and is part of what gave me the motivation to start working on a real project (the other part being massive appreciation for (G)ZDoom).

The thing is, I don't think that having easier editing utilities should detract from the fact that there are a lot of excellent wads out there at the moment, because there are (and always will be) even more turkeys. That isn't DB's fault, give it to a crap mapper and they'll still make crap maps, they just might look a bit tidier.

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hardcore_gamer said:

The maps don't look like anything, the layouts make no sense, the detail is shit, the texture usage is shit, it is"typical" for the gameplay to be shit, Doom 2: The master Levels is just a mismash of shit.

You played the PSX version. Of course the detail is bad.
The PSX versions of Doom had colored lighting and moody music to make up for how bland the levels were in comparison.

Not saying they are detailed gold on the PC versions, but the PSX version is not the one you should play. Besides, you bought FINAL DOOM, Master levels was just a part of it on that version. If you played on PC, they were completely separate purchases, so chill out.

hardcore_gamer said:

I never expected to be anything like Plutonia 2. But i still expected at least half decent levels and got almost none.

For the time line when these levels were released, they are not that bad. Yes, there are some shitty ones, but there are enough gems in there if you ask me. The fact you missed out on teeth alone tells me you should replay that shit on the PC before you open your mouth.

And no offense, I don't really like your work. I can see somebody copying and pasting exactly what you said about master levels only for your work and meaning it.

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Graf Zahl said:

... that doesn't change the fact that even back then there have been a considerable amount of levels that are a lot better than these so-called 'Master' levels.


That's right, but they where far away from being pathetic.

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I think the title leads people to expect something really special, and, with a couple of exceptions, that's not what they get. I do recognize that the authors of the maps went on to produce some brilliant levels, I just don't think they were on the top of their game here.

And I am taking age into account; I played Fava Beans again recently and really enjoyed it, I think that's from the same era.

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