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Patrick

A Question of Ethics in Videogames

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A week ago, I showed my little brother a recreation of our house made in Doom. We put some effort into making photos into textures and made a decent recreation. Our mother saw what we had done, went apeshit, and now suspects us of being potential serial killers ready to snap at any moment.

This overreaction brought up a few thoughts. I'm currently working on a mod that shows several real life locations such as a supermarket, a school and an office building. Is it unethical or wrong to have depictions of these places? If there were a game about mass murder, is it acceptable to having a game with the player as a serial killer? what is the line between what is acceptable and what is not in a video game?

My thoughts are that as long as there are no sexual perversions (pedophilia, pornographic scenes, etc.) or situations where innocent children are the target, then anything is acceptable.

Discuss.

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Patrick said:

I'm currently working on a mod that shows several real life locations such as a supermarket, a school and an office building. Is it unethical or wrong to have depictions of these places?


If you're using all the Doom demons I don't thinks this is an issue...at all. It'll be more "Hell on Earth" than Doom 2 was. Even if you had "sexual perversions" and "innocent people" in it, there is hardly an issue, stuff like that has been in GTA and various other games for a long time and people are kind of desensitized to it, except for the usual wackos.

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Patrick: Her reaction shows more about her own character than it does about anyone else's. You know there's nothing wrong with what you're doing, so it's up to her to come to that realization.

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Patrick said:

Is it unethical or wrong to have depictions of these places?

No. You're going to be defending the mankind while fighting Hell, no? What's wrong with that?

Patrick said:

If there were a game about mass murder, is it acceptable to having a game with the player as a serial killer?

I'd say mostly not, but it really depends on how the player is displayed. Ie. being something more tongue-in-cheek like GTA is more acceptable (IMO) than being a mass murdering sociopath who, as a part of the gameplay, actually picks his victims, plans how to murder them and then carries out that plan.

Patrick said:

sexual perversions

Assuming it's a porn game (or a mature non-porn game where, for some reason, perversion would be implied as a part of the game world or story, like in Max Payne), I don't see anything wrong with that. Of course the way it's displayed could again affect it.

Patrick said:

innocent people are the target

See serial killing.

Patrick said:

what is the line between what is acceptable and what is not in a video game?

I wouldn't draw the line between any particular things that are being depicted, but where and how it's going to be done. I'm not saying that everyone should accept everything, of course not, not everyone enjoys cult splatter movies either. But deciding that some topic, regardless of how it's being depicted, is unacceptable would be censorship.

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Show her Postal 2 and then we're talking.

The issue has been brought forward time and again in the past (e.g. the Columbine Massacre, which also has a direct link to Doom itself).

The truth: when I was a kid we still played with rocks and sticks (I mean chasing and hitting each other) which had a very real component of getting badly hurt if things got out of control, yet none called any of us a killer in the making, and interventions from grownups were very rare. Playing Doom is much less harmful and diseducational than some "boys games".

The reality: unfortunately, when dealing with things such as FPS you also have to deal with the manipulated crowd's sheepish ignorance, calculated logical fallacies, media sensationalism etc. so any rational discussion will just fall on deaf ears. At which point you either conform or call everybody an asshole and move on, which is not always an easy choice.

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The reason I ask is because I want to make a mod with a very dark premise (something to the effect of a mass murderer on a cop-killing spree.) My mother's reaction inspired me to make something very controversial and fucked up. Obviously she overreacted and admits it, but did approach me and my brother making sure we understood the difference between fantasy violence and real violence ("yes, mom, I'm 19 and I have my own place. I think I know that this stuff is fake.")

But, again, the reaction has inspired me to make something which will clearly piss people off. I just am also curious if there are any legal ramifications towards this as well. I think there's a law about depicting children in videogames.

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Patrick said:

But, again, the reaction has inspired me to make something which will clearly piss people off. I just am also curious if there are any legal ramifications towards this as well. I think there's a law about depicting children in videogames.


So long as it doesn't depict real-world events (i.e. basing your characters off real people), I don't think there's anything anone can do legally.

As far as I know in the US there's no laws about depicting children in videogames, it's just something generally considered morally reprehensible to depict killing them in games and will basically ensure an AO rating and no one will distribute the game. Although this is not always true. For example, you can kill children in the original two Fallout games. On the other hand in those games if you do so, you are branded a child killer and are basically hunted by every NPC in the game with a weapon.

I think, however, in the UK there's some laws or something against it.

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Well, there's the 1st Amendment of your constitution that guarantees even White Power Neo-Nazis with freedom of speech, so in theory you should be covered, unless you dwelve into explicitly forbidden territory like pedophilia, terrorism etc. (which are exceptions to free speech, and can turn pretty ugly)

The problem is however that in the same country it's all too common to make a lawsuit out of anything, and one too many people live out of handing lawsuits; some do it "beningly", adamantly convinced that they are acting "on behalf of the Good". Some do it for the $$$, and I bet that some may actually get hardons just from thinking into how much shit they can drag you just by pointing their finger/blowing a whistle, leaving the hard part of proving that they're not elephants to their victims.

So yeah, there's always the chance that some "concerned" citizen may blow the whistle on you, not necessarily out of malice, or that some less-than-friendly coworker may see what you're trying to pull and rat you in. With the Patriot Act, they can even sprinkle the whole shit salad with some "subversion" and "terrorism". Even if you're 100% within your lawful rights to make it, the burden of defending yourself against the shitstorm lies entirely on you. Unless you sue back ;-)

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Patrick said:

I think there's a law about depicting children in videogames.

There's a law against child porn, both real and imaginary (games, drawings...), in the US. That's all I know of.

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My vision is something like a combination of Fight Club and NBK. I thought making a plot where an office worker goes kill crazy and is forced to do battle with law enforcement after some killing rampage. Obviously this is just some angry teen fantasy, but it would be fun to put together.

My only fear is having the "terrorism" card pulled on me, which can lead to nasty things around here if you're not careful. Then again, nothing sells like controversy.

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Nomad said:

I think, however, in the UK there's some laws or something against it.

I know the European versions of the Fallout games had the children removed. Actually, they just made them invisible and untargetable. Those brats in The Den could still steal your crap and apparently there was nothing you could do about it.

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Asking whether there may be legal implications for a shocking or "trollish" mod does sound a bit perverse in itself, as you seem to be poking at the boundaries of society without looking at yourself, which gives the impression that your moral outlook isn't very keen. You mother knows you better so maybe she knows why she's concerned. Go talk it up with your mom. If you can't, something is already not working too well.

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Danarchy said:

I know the European versions of the Fallout games had the children removed. Actually, they just made them invisible and untargetable. Those brats in The Den could still steal your crap and apparently there was nothing you could do about it.

There was a patch released which added the children, though.

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Well, I feel that making a game with the intention of pissing people off is a perfectly acceptable motive. Its what messages you're trying to get across that really makes the difference. If it is clear that its simply an angsty juvenile trying to make people mad or get attention, there ought to be a concern. People like that tend to be very disagreeable and reactionary. I can understand if there is a fear of people like this, because it speaks poorly of their character. If the message makes a valid social/political point, and uses the objectionable material for this purpose, I think this is more acceptable, or perhaps the right way to do it. It is frequent to see movies that are controversial that are "meant to make a statement." However, often times these movies fall victim of whatever it is they are trying to mock (Hot Fuzz anyone?) If I could pull something off without becoming an example of what it is I'm satirizing, I feel that this is something worth expanding on.

As for my moral character, my thoughts are "how can we know good if we dont know evil?" Censorship against good or evil can lead to a skewed moral perspective. If no one knows evil, how can we be truly good? On the same note, how can we judge evil acts if we have no knowledge of good?

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Actually I would find a game where you play as a right-wing activist or McCarthyism-era government agent far more disturbing. Get points for calling Democrats "dirty commies", posting canned rants on political websites, ratting out your "suspect terrorists" or "politically deviant" neighbors, infiltrate and disrupt peace demonstrations and rallys, act as an undercover agent provocateur etc.

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Jodwin said:

There's a law against child porn, both real and imaginary (games, drawings...), in the US. That's all I know of.

How do lolicon games get released here then? I don't know what the current law on that sort of stuff is, but I thought drawings weren't illegal.

On the subject, I'd say go for it. You don't even necessarily need a message behind it either. If you're simply trying to relieve stress, that's a perfectly acceptable reason. Many artists create art for that very reason.

If you release your mod, be sure to let others know what your original intent was and that you mean no harm but are willing to discuss the issue. It's better to be open, honest and mature about what you are doing if and when you release this. If you are doing this to be reactionary and then deflect the issue when questioned, you'll end up like Sigvatr did.

Speaking of which, you might want to do some research on him and his projects to see how this sort of thing can go horribly wrong.

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heh. Sigvatr is my inspiration for this in a way. Then he just disappeared. You're in his hometown (or not :P), WTF happened to him? we used to talk about shit like this all the time.

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I live in the States, actually. As far as I know, after the backlash and legal problems from Muslim Massacre, he sort of disappeared. He made a post on the TIG Source forums earlier in the year talking about it, so try searching for him there.

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Snarboo said:

How do lolicon games get released here then? I don't know what the current law on that sort of stuff is, but I thought drawings weren't illegal.

Well, apparently it's actually a grey area, but as you can see from the link there have been cases where drawn child pornography is found illegal in the US.

As to games being released, apparently that's a grey area too. :P

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I did manage to find what happened to sigvatr, and it is explained here: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=6705.0

This is exactly the kind of scenario I want to avoid. Make it clear that its just not another stupid dude on the internet who found it amusing to himself an no one else. I want to piss people off for a(n) reason agenda.

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Patrick said:

Our mother saw what we had done, went apeshit, and now suspects us of being potential serial killers ready to snap at any moment.


I think my Mom thought this when I first told her about Doom. I just had to tell her that just by playing a game with guns and shooting doesn't mean I want to kill anyone in real life.

As for the ethics of what you want to do, many people by chance would most likely frown upon what you want to. Namely do to the fact that this has already been done in the past in a harmful way (Thank you Columbine dickheads) making the whole practice frowned upon in general. While I don't think it would be against the law here in America, many people wouldn't be big on it.

As for pissing off the public, I'd be careful. The public can be a very nasty enemy if you piss it off enough.

Patrick said:

what is the line between what is acceptable and what is not in a video game?


Well, to take into account what Nintendo of America used to think...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_games_censored_by_Nintendo_of_America

http://www.filibustercartoons.com/Nintendo.php

Those are your examples of tailoring a video game to the over protective Jack Thompson audience.

In my personal opinion you should be able to include anything that you really want into a game. Sure you might piss some people off, but nobody says that you have to play that certain game. Of course some of the things you mentioned (i.e. anything harmful to children) obviously wouldn't be acceptable IMHO.

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Patrick said:

I want to piss people off for a(n) reason agenda.

If it gets to the media, they won't give a damn about your agenda.

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That's another thing: if this spreads beyond your target audience, there is a good chance others won't understand it and react to the content rather than the message.

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It looks to me like this Sigvatr's biggest mistake was being so cryptic about it. Being more straightforward and blunt about it is less likely to attract undue attention.

There will always be detractors, but if you don't give them the fuel they don't have much to go on.

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Well, from what I've learned from the Sigvatr event:

(1) "The Masses" are unforgiving and as intolerant as they claim not to be

(2) Any message I am getting across will be ignored

(3) My justification for the controversial elements will be perverted by critics or not taken seriously

(4) the negative kind of fame that gets me expelled from the reputable college I attend

(5) I get to be popular with skinheads

I don't quite see where this can go wrong...

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The stupid people these type of things are supposed to expose are the same stupid people the media dotes over. It never works, because the whole "I'm exposing people's ignorance by appealing to it" just comes across to stupid people as fine and slightly less (more?) stupid people as offensive.

Pretty much just operate under the assumption that everyone you've ever met or ever will meet is dumber than you can possibly imagine.

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Just work on your mod while no one else is watching, or knowing, and release it under a pseudonym over the internet. No one unwanted will recognize it.

You're a major, Doom is harmless, so you're safe. The only dangers come from clear stuff like intellectual infringement, but I know you're a a graphic artist, so no problem there.

As for commercial games in general, they have to sell to as many people as possible, whose tastes dissolve into a middle that may be too squeamish to ultraviolent imagery, so producers have to be wary. As had been said, free games don't have this condition, so for an extreme amoral example, I'm thinking of that Pandemic thing... Just be careful not to create offensive content that has to be hosted on a server that had signed contracts against such. Or to create illegal imagery (child porn is most often mentioned).

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Wanna create something offensive that will gain you as little sympathizers as possible and possibly hit the most exposed nerves of your society? Enter kick-ass titles such as "Holocaust revisionism", "9/11 revisited", "American Communist", "Vietnam: Unjoust Cause", "Operation Iraqi Freedom: the Revenge", "Prison Break: Guantanamo Bay and Abu Graib edition", "War on Terror: the other side" and basically anything going against popular opinion, official state policy, lobby groups etc.

They are kick-ass because they are practically guaranteed to get your ass kicked on sight, and other niceties such as swarms of self-appointed "patriots" burning your house down.

Hell...even if you inserted ONE line of dialogue such as "You know, I think 9/11 was a bunch of bullshit and there's no actual War on Terror" into an otherwise non-controversial production, you would spark emotional, practically visceral responses of the same magnitude.

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