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darkreaver

[In progress] Two maps (first map need playtesters!)

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NEW EDIT:

new file: http://www.mediafire.com/?wkmjdmwtmuw

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EDIT: Ok, its time for some playtesting. Had a long break, but did some quick "finishing" last night, and played through the map sometimes. Enough times to make me wanna puke just thinking of the map :P
I`guess theres lots of errors, mistakes, general lameness bla bla bla, but I NEED some feedback before I finish it off! Dont wanna spam /idgames with crap either.

Read plz:

-I have only tested it in prboom+ (acctually glboom+) (zdoom wont work for some reason, and I wont bother getting skulltag)
-Does the unclosed sectors affect you in any way?
-Is the map too dark in general? (its fine in GL mode IMO)
-Some areas are somewhat boring visually, and the themes/textures are somewhat varied, but I want to keep it that way, because its my first map, and I have learned a lot all the way making it. It kinda shows my progress a little I think.
-Is it too easy? Too hard? Ammo? Health? Secrets? I think its kinda hard, and I use like 20 mins to finish it on UV-max (only made it once lol). Also its very linear, but thats intentionally.
-Only 1 skill yet (UV)
-The Arch-Vile when you take the high/tall elevator back up when you RETURN from the "big" outdoor area (red key area)...is it too hard? Considering you dont have the BFG yet. Might change it with some revenants.
-The final-battle-room is very flat, but its good because you need to move quite alot there. Or?
-Be a critic, please.
-Wont mind if you record a demo :)

the WAD: http://www.mediafire.com/?m3gdfdyyihf (old)

stats:

6149 vertices
7273 linedefs
1277 sectors
960 things

END of edit.

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Hello!

Just wanted to make this thread to maybe get some input, heads up, criticism, help and maybe some motivation.

Im very new to mapping, so these are my first maps ever. So there will probably be lots of errors and some lame looking areas hehe...thats one of the reasons Im making this thread.

Im working on two maps. First map is a tech/earth/whatever base, the other one is Hell, or something like that.

Im not quite ready to share the wads yet (not playable at all yet), but Ill throw out some screenies. Please gimme your thoughts and be be afraid to be a critic! :)

note: yes, I IDDQD and IDKFA`d, because no weapons or health are placed yet.

First map:

http://i37.tinypic.com/2gvsl07.png

http://i36.tinypic.com/rsvbwn.png

http://i33.tinypic.com/121pyq0.png

http://i35.tinypic.com/2iu59io.png

http://i33.tinypic.com/j97d4x.png

http://i36.tinypic.com/29xcehh.png

http://i36.tinypic.com/2lscebp.png

http://i38.tinypic.com/27zyou8.png

Second map:

http://i36.tinypic.com/33crg4h.png

http://i33.tinypic.com/33ug22u.png

http://i35.tinypic.com/wp7dd.png

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Criticism eh ... >:)

First, and simplest, someone on these forums once said that a difference between a good mapper and a great mapper is that the great mapper uses separate posts and lines for his railings vs. simply following the edge. I'm not sure who said it anymore, it was a while ago.

Second, and middling, in your 5th shot for MAP01, the piped METAL* textures look weird not being aligned right. They take about the same effort as non-plain STARTAN stuff to align, so maybe take the ones that aren't on the grid and make them METAL2 instead so they're easier to align. I realize this is probably a little anal for your first map(s) but it never hurts to get in practice.

Third, with a few parts, there's this off your second pic;

The purple bars look awkward rising all the way to the ceiling, putting SUPPORT3 bars in there (I find 4 x offset works nicely for 8 and 16 width lines) or recessing them so the upper wall overhangs them and you can put textures similar to the alcoves which would work well.

The yellow/green bar looks pretty meh broken as it is, raise the floor and lower the ceiling a little so it's centered and is taking space from the panels in the bronze texture, they should be about 64 height, good for your orange light panel.

Using ceiling lights for door overhangs like in the red bar looks a little strange to me. Splitting it and lowering the ceiling of the sector closest to the door about 4-8 units then putting a border texture on that upper linedef after making the sector father from the door a plain ceiling texture to fit in with the bronze wall textures you used for the overhang would look better imo.

Finally having something interesting on the ceiling to look at is 2x better than having interesting stuff on the floor (and walls, to an extent) that might snag you when running around. The pillars in the second pic of MAP02 do well enough for that sort of thing, since it breaks up the brown ceiling.

Otherwise I like where it's going, the second to last MAP01 pic looks cool, and all the MAP02 pics look interesting. The details you have are simple and work nicely for old-school doom maps.

So ... lets see how obsolete my post is by the time I post it ;)

P.S. heh, not very.

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Thanks man! Thats the kind of reply I wanted :)

The red and the yellow markings Ill take care of/work on.

But the purple: its like that because the walls have opened (trap-like) to reveal those gray rooms. I might separate the trapdoors from the wall, but that will make it kinda easy to spot. Hmmm, Ill look into it.

also, does those orange lights work as an yellow key indicator do you think? Or is it too orange? That is what they are there for, heh :P

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For the purple, you can pull out some pillars between the alcoves. It looks like you've got room for 16x16 squares, so SUPPORT2 and 3 are choices; it's fun manipulating the patches through offsets of some things like the bronzewalls though, and since you're using those for the main bits you could add a border on top and use the light or cross bronzewall to make an interesting pillar. Also, does the ceiling need to be so high? I think it'd look better at 192 height. Might make some problems aligning things though.

If you only use the orange to mark yellow key doors it shouldn't be a problem. Using it too close to other doors though would be a bit confusing. Since there's no actual yellow torches in doom I usually go blue-blue, red-red, and green-yellow, as far as keys/areas go. Making a purple torch'd be nice ... heh.

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I'm really digging the shots on your second map. (:

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This is how it looks in DB now:

http://i35.tinypic.com/2zgt0lt.jpg

and that should explain the roof height also, heh.

I might add some pillars, but on the other hand I like the simplicity of the room. Also it gets "cooler looking" once the walls/alcoves open. Hmmm, dunno yet.
Thanks for input though !
Also did some major re-texturing in some of the other areas

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Nice. Test that bit in pr/boom though, midtextures like to bleed when the bottom edge is below the floor in that port and I think vanilla too. I see in your other pic you have the railing from the cc4 textures, you could use that instead.

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ArmouredBlood said:

SUPPORT3 bars in there

Don't listen to this guy. SUPPORT2 is the way to go ;)
But really, SUPPORT3 is for the darker themed maps while SUPPORT2 is for the lighter themed maps. I think that SUPPORT2 would fit better in your map, at least in that part. But that's just me.

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Go make some more sky maps arrrgh, he's making an enclosed base so SUPPORT3 fits :P

Nah it's actually pretty light, SUPPORT2 would work better. I just like making dark and grungy maps.

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ArmouredBlood said:

I just like making dark and grungy maps.


I hear the that. SUPPORT2 can jump off a bridge.

Speaking of textures, why isn't there a SUPPORT1?

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U.O.D. said:

I hear the that. SUPPORT2 can jump off a bridge.

Speaking of textures, why isn't there a SUPPORT1?


'cause 7 8 9, and 1's a coward? ;) It might've gotten mashed into PLAT whatever, the other one people use for lifts. Or there's an alpha version of SUPPORT1 and they didn't like it so they removed it, but kept the 2/3 numbers since they didn't want to deal with moving them around.

Speaking of that PLAT texture, it'd make an interesting column ...

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Lol, yeah, Im using alot of support textures. As you might see I used those metal/pipes as support alot hah, but I have changed most of them. Some are still left though, for some reason I like those pipes really much lol!. Kinda reminds me of Alien.

Also Im trying to make a more consisten (hmmm, is this the right word?) style, and not a mess of 100 different themes. Going primarily for brown and grey, with some greens here and there.

Im having some troubles with unclosed sectors also. Argh. Really dunno how to fix those without deleting the whole area, which is out of the question, god damnit!

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Just want to say: If these are your first maps ever I'm really impressed with the amount of good looking detail I see just judging form those screenshots. You're a natural!

With that said, the mid textures for the windows in the last Map01 screenshot need some serious aligning. Try widening the windows a little to allow the texture room to completely fit so that the edges don't look cut off.

Also about those unclosed sectors... If you get used to DB2 there's the ever handy (in other words "god send") "Make Sector" button. It creates a sector out of a messed up area and allows you to go on from there. Also, don't forget about your merge and join sector tools, that helps a lot with maintaining rooms with lots of detail.

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Haha, didnt even notice those bad looking windows! Ill try and make them wider to make the texture fit. The area is not finished though, so it`ll probably look better later on.

And DB2: maybe Ill do some last touches (try to close sectors etc) when Im finished with the rest. The unclosed sectors doesnt affect the gameplay or anything as far as I have noticed (prboom+), but I guess it wouldnt hurt to fix them.

Thanks for commenting! Gives me motivation :)

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Would anyone be interested in testing map 1, EVEN though its only about 60-70% finished, and no weapons or health are placed yet?

edit: major updates to map, so I removed the link. BBL

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Hai, just posting in mah own thread

Ok, so map01 is nearing its completion. "Of course" I couldnt help myself, so the ending is kinda slaugher`ish, heh.

I still have some minor detailing to do in a couple of areas, and some errors to be fixed. Ammo/health/monster balance is soon done (just UV, yet).

One of the errors is a couple of unclosed sectors, which I`ll try to fix with DB2 (as someone saud. Never even tried DB2).

The other problem is: I have some monsters teleporting in, you know, from small rooms outside the map. I have joined the sectors with another sector to wake them up. BUT, I seem to have made the monster-rooms/sectors too close to the playing-area, so when you walk around early in the map you can hear dozens of revenants and archviles from behind the walls. This kinda suck!

So; is there any way to move those sectors further away from the actual playing-area, so that you wont hear the monsters before they teleport in?

Ugh ugh.

map-shot:
http://i45.tinypic.com/97l4xl.png

Some stats:

5201 vertices
6196 linedefs
10397 sidedefs
1136 sectors
751 things (still some ammo, health and decoration to be added)

Total playtime with IDDQD and IDFA on UV-max, just blasting through, was about 12 minutes.

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darkreaver said:

So; is there any way to move those sectors further away from the actual playing-area, so that you wont hear the monsters before they teleport in?


I don't know what editor your using, but DB2 let's you easily move sectors around.

PS: I'll map test for you if you want.

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Im using DB1. I know I can move thw sectors, but if I do, Ill also move the starting-sector, which is joined with all those sectors. So what I need is a way to separate already joined sectors, I guess.

I can throw out a link to the wad soon

edit: Ok, I figured it out. It was simply going into "lines mode" and select all linedefs, and then move them, instead of doing it in "sectors mode". Lol. Ok, one step closer to completion!

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Some new screens:

This is happening because of one of the unclosed sectors:


A small fight:


Breathing some fresh air:


Why the hell would they have nukage in the same room as this hi-tech teleporter device?:

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I tried a first demo attempt but it was the first bit of doom I played today and I hate playing stair iced areas in prboom.

Forget stair ice for a minute though ... you need to get those unclosed sectors fixed. I tried fixing them in DB2, but only got half of them fixed before DB was giving me an unhandled exception and refusing to do anything. Need someone more technical for this ...

For the map itself, there are parts that feel okay, then parts that feel really scrunched, like the 2 hell knights/caco/4 imps fight before the yellow key. There's barely any room to dodge and the stair ice from the platform is really annoying, not to mention the armor being BEHIND everything you need to kill before it kills you is also annoying. Remove the imps or hell knights and it should work fine. The lift to get down to the yellow key area is also pretty annoying, as the imps are roaming around in front of the platform before you can even get down it and you have to bait them out of the way or you'd get stuck in the lift and die. The mancubus there seems really unnecessary as you can take just 1 shell to blast all the barrels and then you have no mancubus to worry about.

Once you get the yellow key and open the door I pretty much ran out of ammo and since there are hitscanners and a revenant in the peanut gallery if I had headed directly for the boxes of shells at the bottom of 2 stairs I would've had an interesting time, especially with some stuff teleporting in behind me. Then I had ~5 hp to go across a thin bar across nukage ... that went as expected.

I didn't bother getting farther, as the first demo attempt is pretty crappy and you're going to get those sectors fixed before anyone really bothers with the map so doing another demo is pointless.

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You persevered pretty well, AB. I had the delusion of playing through the whole thing. Not to say the map is bad, it's just very unbalanced after a certain point.

Let's start from the top.

You didn't specify which port was meant to be used. I would have used ZDoom as I normally do, but you said it wouldn't work. So since you said you used GLBoom+ I figured I should break out GZDoom. When mapping it's good to decide exactly which port you're mapping for before starting and specify as such when releasing it/having it tested. For the record I had no gameplay problems with GZDoom, but those unclosed sectors you talked about clearly cause problems for less powerful ports.

Next, the filesize. "Surely one level couldn't take up over 12 megs," I thought. So I checked it out in XWE and there was a fuckton of textures in the wad. Enough for TWO megawads I'd wager. I assumed they were to be used in levels that would be added later, but do you really need so many? Odds are you'll never use every single texture from a texture pack, but it seemed like you dumped everything in there for good measure. That wastes space.

Speaking of wasted space, here's something else.



See that? Architecture like that that serves no purpose is a waste. Honestly it doesn't look all that pretty anyway, which makes it twice as pointless. Sorry to sound harsh, but when you see stuff like this it's obvious it was just to fill space. I didn't notice a lot of stuff like this aside from those awkward spiral stares in front of the red door. Those seem needlessly complex. Also I noticed a lot of bordering crap which I don't care for personally, but that's just me. Otherwise the architecture is okay if not a little cramped in some inappropriate places.

EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention that there are some sectors outside the nukage in the yellow key pit that are damaging. Make sure to double check those. And I'd remove the barrels on the platforms there too. They make the Mancubus completely harmless because it barely has enough room to move around.

Now the gameplay. At the start things were deceptively easy, little did I know things would get harder fast. After entering the yellow door there was an absence of health for a beat. That combined with the growing monster count and nukage made for an irritating situation. I had to godmode on/off to give myself 100 health or I was never going to progress. Another thing, there was very little downtime between monsters jumping out of closets. This can make things predictable. You need to have that downtime somewhere to leave the player in suspense.

When I got the red key fight I realized that I was lacking the ammo necessary to kill everything. I had to resort to infighting a lot of the monsters. Once everything was clear I entered the small alcove to press the switches and in teleports the arch-viles to undo everything I'd just done plus a load of high level monsters. Fighting them off in that small room was impossible so I had to retreat to the side areas where they couldn't harm me. Needless to say it took awhile to finish.

And before I forget, why are there 4 switches here that, from what I can tell, do exactly the same thing?



Everything after this point was pretty much down hill. I didn't have to cheat, but I had to save state profusely. And the Arch-vile cluster, dear lord. Arch-viles should never come in more than threes.

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Hello! Great! This is what I wanted.


Ok. AB: Those sectors...hmmm yeah, thats a pain in the ass. Didnt notice them before long after I made them. I guess I`ll have to try and do some fixing.

To me it seems like you get annoyed by...alot :P I mean...dunno how to explain..but for example the Caco/2xHellknight/4xImp fight isnt very hard. Just go backwards instead of forward when you enter the teleport. And the armor is behind them, yes. I dont find that annoying, its a challenge. A reward. But I have to agree, I might remove the imps. At least on HMP.
As for the double stairs, yeah kinda annoying with the sliding. I personally always have lots of ammo and health when entering that area. Might have to do with secrets though. Dunno if you found any? (Havent watched the demo yet. Im at work). I need to add some medkits there for sure.
The yellow key area though...I have to aggree, its a mess. Im thinking maybe put those imps up on some platforms, so they dont roam around in the nukage. And yeah, the mancubus...Ill simply remove him.

U.O.D.:

Thanks for the reply!
Its made for Boom, I think? Lol, tbh I dont have a clue, but I chose Boom compitable when I started the map.
Also, what I mean is that ZDoom wont work on my computer! Not the map in ZDoom.

The size of the .wad: Yeah, its the CC4 textures. But, how the hell do I not include them? I reaaally dont know what to do exept merging the texture-pack with the wad.

Yeah, those support-bars, I must admit they are fillers for a boring room. But on the other hand, why NOT have them there? Plain walls are equally boring imho. Also Im interessted in what bordering crap you speak of? Just wanna know what you mean.

Havent noticed the damaging sectors outside the nikage in the yellow key area, but I`ll look into that. I`m guessing it has to do with those unclosed sectors. Curse them!

Yup; as I already said, I need to add more health after the yellow door. Also the "deceptively easy" start is intentional. And the monsters jumping out of closets all the time; yeah, I know. Im a sucker for that kind of things, but I admit, there is too much, and the element of surprise vanishes. too bad, I`ll do better on my next map! Promise :D

About the red key area: infighting is a part of Doom. Dont see why thats a bad thing. But I agree to a certain extent. I should add some more ammo there.
I dont see the problem with the teleporting in of arch-viles and the other monsters though. There is enough ammo in the little alcove room itself to take them out from inside the room, easily. At least if I add more ammo in the general area. (When I think of it, you might wanna find a secret there. Has some ammo.) Ok, I NEED to add more ammo, when I think of it.
-Yeah, those four switches do the same thing. Pick your favorite, lol. Dont see that as a problem though. I added them for the sake of symmetry, as the room itself is symmetrical.

And finaly, the arch-vile cluster...yeah LOL, that was kind of a "fuck this Im adding lots of these fuckers and save the map" because of tiredness and general lameness. I need to fix that.

Wow, feels like the whole map is just a big pile of shit :O
Whatever...Im gonna finish it anyway.

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Replace annoying with 'not a good gameplay choice' and it fits ;P Really difficulty jumps like a few hitscanners going into a SSG fight with 2 HKs/caco/4 imps in what is about a 384 area with stair ice does not equal fun gameplay, especially if it was late in the map and you hadn't saved lately as it wasn't that difficult until then. Not sure on what secrets I found if any ... wasn't looking hard.

For the yellow key, make some pits ~1024 units deep that the imps pop up from when the player hits a certain part of the METAL* bit leading to the lift, and leave the lower sidedefs undefined. Lets the floor bleed over into it and no one will notice when it pops back up with the instant raise action you get with lowering a floor to the highest floor.

There was a bit of stair ice in the beginning, but that was mostly boom annoying me, since skulltag is my preferred port.

For the textures just take the single patch textures you aren't using and delete them and the patch, should save quite a bit of memory if you aren't using over 60% of the textures. You've basically already merged the texture wad as I didn't have to load it with the wad.

@ U.O.D.- heh.

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Thanks!

Yeah, that pit-trick could work for the imps in the yellow key area. I had to do that in the other map Im working on, but I didnt think of it here hehe. Or maybe let them teleport in when the switch is hit? Hmm.

Ok, ok, I`ll have to agree that the HK/caco/Imp fight is too...hmm...cramped, messy, and based on quite some luck. I`ll remove the imps. It`ll still be a challenge since its a small area, but much more managable.

So there is no icing in skulltag? Maybe I should bother getting it anyway then :P

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I'm not familiar with this ice stair stuff AB is talking about. Is it like low traction flooring? I never expect to see stuff like that in FPS's.

I had another tip that I forgot to mention. Your level is pretty lift-heavy, and a lot of the lifts are switch activated. It might make the level flow better if some lifts could be activated just by pressing on them. It's not a big deal or anything, just something to think about.

One morrre thing. IMO the Cyberdemon is in an awkward place. I think it might be better placed in the final room somehow. It could help a lot to have the Cyberdemon mow down some of the monsters for you through infighting.

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Yeah, the cyberdemon is kinda...as you said, in an awkward place. I might switch it with an arch-vile. Should still prove a challenge (and remove the other arch-vile in the room before you see the cyber).

A cyber in the final room would be better yes.

I`ll have a go and fix most of this stuff after the weekend. Cant wait to contoniue with the other map!

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I think by "stair ice" he means Doomguy's tendency to slide around and be difficult to control when walking over height changes, due to the bit of time spent in midair before landing on the next step down. This isn't actually reduced in Skulltag or other ZDoom ports, though; it's still very much a problem in a lot of ZDoom maps with bumpy floor detailing, it's just less noticeable visually because the height changes are smoothed off a bit due to a fix with view-bobbing.

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