Report : 237 millionares in Congress

[fraggle]

Flesh420 said:

Our gov is "supposed" to be a republic not a democracy, yet we are taught it is a democracy and somehow our greed is supposed to be a good thing.

I keep hearing nonsense like this all the time. Do people not understand what these words mean or something?

[The Ultimate DooMer]

myk said:

The problem of wealth and intellect is that wealth facilitates it. If you're poor, you'll have issues obtaining the best education. If you're not so poor that it actually degrades your mental powers due to the lack of nutrients, of course.

Yeah I should've added "in the 1st world" to the end of my last post, as it already is the case in 2nd and 3rd world countries. (where education itself is beyond many folk)

[Flesh420]

fraggle said:

I keep hearing nonsense like this all the time. Do people not understand what these words mean or something?

America is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic . . . NOT a Democracy. Democracy=Corporate Greed
There is a very good reason that our Pledge of Allegiance refers to our country as a Republic and there is a very good reason that our Declaration of Independence and our constitution do not even mentioned the word "democracy".

Have you ever read the Federalist papers, or the constitution?

This is what we are up against.

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interest of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists ' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." -David Rockefeller

Its a big club and none of us are in it.

[Visplane Overflow]

Flesh420 said:

GRR GOVERNMENT BAD, NOW HULK TOKE.

Seriously dude, you gotta not post after lighting up.

[Flesh420]

Visplane Overflow said:

Seriously dude, you gotta not post after lighting up.

Lol HULK SMASH!

[myk]

Flesh420 said:
Democracy=Corporate Greed

Corporate greed is another word for capitalism, if anything. There's certainly a link between modern representative democracy and capitalism, as it's a political form used within the economic system. Essentially, you either have democracy or some form of authoritarian government. Compare, for instance, the US and Saudi Arabia. Both are capitalist, and while the former uses the representative republican model for democracy, the latter uses an absolute monarchy for authoritarianism.

There is a very good reason that our Pledge of Allegiance refers to our country as a Republic and there is a very good reason that our Declaration of Independence and our constitution do not even mentioned the word "democracy".

The reason is because the term democracy, used as a form of government, became popular once the system was established, and not while it was being established. The US is one of the forerunners of this sort of system and its independence can be marked as a stating point, previous attempts notwithstanding, followed by the French revolution. Democracy, in a modern sense, is a term that encompasses all the post-monarchic representative and inclusive or liberal governments that started in the west.

Have you ever read the Federalist papers, or the constitution?

Alexander Hamilton's comments on democracy criticized direct democracy and had a somewhat conservative tone. He was wary of free-market capitalism, as well, and favored some forms of protectionist government intervention.

Treading new ground, it was a matter of how much they would stray away from the established practices of monarchists in their more egalitarian aims. Their conclusion was a rather universal, if male-oriented and racist back then, representative republican system for electing leaders. That, along with the parliamentary systems developed in some other countries, constitutes modern representative democracy.

This is what we are up against.

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interest of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists ' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." -David Rockefeller

Its a big club and none of us are in it.

As Rockefeller implies, you could fit a lot of people, groups and ideologies in the bag of claiming to be against the dominant capitalist class, many of which are strictly opposed to each other in many ways. It doesn't say much.

And you cannot go back to 1800, no matter how much you idealize it nostalgically. Over two hundred years have passed, and things have changed quite a bit.

[Flesh420]

thank you MYK for not being a dick :)

I strongly suggest you read David Rockefeller: Memoirs, he openly states how he wants to destroy the United States. I think it is about time givein the Tech we have, to get rid of currency and governments all together. Instead of the ELITE using the Divide and Conquer startegy, right VS left, Blacks VS white. We contantly argue about nothing that really matters. Its been too long we have allowed a unbalanced system rule us. I bealive if god does exist in some form that IT would want every man women and child to have food on the table and roof over their head. Its should not be up to currency to decide, yet it does.

In god we trust... Money
Its time to grow before we kill ourselves off!

Kinda off topic I know, im sorry cant help it lol.

Have a good thanksgiving people!

[Starke Von Oben]

Flesh420 said:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29235.html

Its a big club and your not in it. Feels great to be the lower class slaves, doesn't it? Just think these are the fuck heads who are shoving the big red, white and blue flag up your ass every day. They are also the swine who are telling you to take the H1N1 Vacc.

Generally speaking, and I know this isn't a popular view since most people aren't rich, but rich people generally have the comfortable stable and educated background that makes them more applicable to the reigns of government than the "lower class slaves". I don't want "ordinary" people with their petty family feuds, the type of people who watch Jerry Springer and sleep around the estate to be running any form of government.

I don't want to sound like an utter dick, but we are guttersnipes for a reason. It's not just our lack of wealth that makes us so, but our small minded perspectives and inclination towards rash decision making. Every time a "lower class slave" took the reigns of government in the 20th century they turned the countries they ruled over into single vast realms of suffering, horror and death - Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein... all came from the lower classes, all pent up with lower class resentments and insecurities that came about only due to their backgrounds and experiences. Lower class people always have a chip on their shoulder, and there's a reason we don't allow people like that to get into government.

[Flesh420]

Starke Von Oben said:

I don't want to sound like an utter dick, but we are guttersnipes for a reason. It's not just our lack of wealth that makes us so, but our small minded perspectives and inclination towards rash decision making. Every time a "lower class slave" took the reigns of government in the 20th century they turned the countries they ruled over into single vast realms of suffering, horror and death - Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein... all came from the lower classes, all pent up with lower class resentments and insecurities that came about only due to their backgrounds and experiences. Lower class people always have a chip on their shoulder, and there's a reason we don't allow people like that to get into government.

Did not sound like a dick at all, I see what you are saying but the thing that gets me is that yes we wouldnt want the lower class slaves in there because of certain things, but people also don't realize that if people are smart and wealthy then what is too stop them from taking advantage? Bribing, lobbying and all the other BS that happens. What happens when you get a wealthy and smart man who DOES think of us as slaves. From the time we are born till the time we are dead we are not labeled as people we are labeled as CONSUMERS I mean obviously they do not care about the kids because if they did we would not be damn near owned by china, and we would not be in so much god damn debt, that will take generations to pay off. Where does it stop? Wouldn't we better off with a whole brand new system of government that is truly made by the people of the people, with new idea's?

I mean its like we have a war going on because of some boogey man in a cave, and we need to be over in other countries for our own protection, yet mexicans come in here in packs and if its so easy for mexicans to be here then why has there not been one god damn suicide bombing if these so called "terrorists" where such a threat? People are lining their pockets and selling us out.

That is basically the long and short of it sadly these days. The FISA Courts and their secret wiretaps, searches, arrests and trials are about the most un-American thing to ever be concieved in an increasingly authoritarian Federal Government that between the War on Drugs and the War on Terror has spending trillions and giving up our rights, left and right for some kind of warped notion of security against threats that the biggest source of the threats stems from overly intrusive government.

Most drug violence would dissapear if illegal drugs were made legal and the violent gun toting gangs who distripute them were put out of business as a result.

Most terrorism would dissapear if the government conducted even handed foreign policy and stopped rewarding one nation for doing the same exact thing it will punish another nation for with the only apparent and readily identifiable difference between the nations being the religion or type of government that nation has since it does reward and punish based on the exact same type of action done by the nation rewarded as done by the nation punished.

Our government is becoming increasingly predatory and unpredictable both at home an abroad.

It is "US" the lower class slaves that make this country, and god damnit we need to do something about the shit that is happening instead of sitting here doing nothing, such as myself. What do we do? We elect a puppet that promises he will make it better but what has he done that really matters?

[Starke Von Oben]

Flesh420 said:

It is "US" the lower class slaves that make this country, and god damnit we need to do something about the shit that is happening instead of sitting here doing nothing, such as myself.

Speaking as one fellow gutternsipe to another, my advice would be to keep your head down and wait till you die (if you're lucky).

Don't bother with politics, there's nothing you can do to change it without an armed uprising. This has always been the case throughout history - voting has never got anything done other than provide a rational means for rational men from a rational background. Only a national passion rearing in strength can defy the enslavement of itself.

Such a decision is and remains a bloody one.

[Visplane Overflow]

Rock the vote, motherfucker. Seriously, I see a lot of hippies here that need to go out and vote once in a while - it's your right as a citizen of the United States of America, and you must excercise that right.

[Starke Von Oben]

Visplane Overflow said:

Rock the vote, motherfucker. Seriously, I see a lot of hippies here that need to go out and vote once in a while - it's your right as a citizen of the United States of America, and you must excercise that right.

If I truly wanted to change my government, I would take my inspiration from the French Revolution - I do not believe you can simply bypass the powers that be without a bloody uprising. There is no way they would concede rights to anyone unless it profited them in some way.

I personally think that the situation we currently are in calls for more bitching than we are normally accustomed to, but it doesn't go any further than that. Unless something radically bad happens people will just put up with it until the final moment. I do not believe for a start that voting has ever made a difference, and is simply a festival for powerful lobbies to stand before the people as a means of power sharing - it doesn't matter if a democrat or a republican is in power, for both serve the same principle essentially.

We were often told that soviet Russia was a dictatorship, that it only allowed a single party system. Personally I believe we have the same system, but we camouflage it the falsehood that there are two opposing parties fighting eachother over vastly diferent things. That's not even the case - both parties aim for the same thing, but speak about it in a different languages. In Soviet Russia there were different elements in the communist party, from reformist to hardliners, who were democratically elected by the populace. People in soviet Russia were given a choice who to elect in a system that didn't radically alter that much, even if they voted for reformists or hardliners.

The same thing happens in all so-called "democratic" western countries - our choices are dependant on what the all powerful political bodies decide to allow us to vote for. The only way for REAL change would be for the population to rise up and beat a path to the door of the whitehouse/westminster. Obama gives much lip service to change, but he's only doing so for the people behind him - his personality cult is an utter sham, and I find it personally repulsive that his image can be purchased on T-shirts in Camden Town.

If you want real change then people have to stand up and fight for it. I do not believe that moment is now, since no one is starving or of want of anything. But when that day arrives I grantee you there will be a bloodbath, since that is the natural course of any people who genuinely want change - it is never found in the ballot box.

[Flesh420]

Well said, I agree 100%

[Visplane Overflow]

Starke Von Oben said:

Mindless political rhetoric

You've managed to write 5 paragraphs of text without actually saying anything. Vote or die.

[Flesh420]

Voting is like choosing between coke or pepsi. One is a little sweeter.

[Starke Von Oben]

Visplane Overflow said:

You've managed to write 5 paragraphs of text without actually saying anything. Vote or die.

The burden of proof is with you now Visplane I'm afraid. If I were you I'd demonstrate to the whole of doomworld the validity of your point, or else STFU in vile expectancy.

Simply saying so wont cut it - any schoolboy can do it.

[Visplane Overflow]

Hippies and voting, what is it with you guys? Why is everyone so suspicious of the voting system? Unbelievable. They teach how important this stuff is in grade school, so I don't think I should need to explain it. Anyway, not a single one of you has ever been disenfranchised, nor have you lived in a dictatorship, so I would advise you to not draw wild conclusions just because you don't think your vote counts.

Also, to Starke : Let's make it perfectly clear that I have nothing to prove to you; I'm not the one living in paranoia, I'm not the one that refuses to vote, I'm not the one spreading nihilist bullshit around, and I'm definitely not the guy ranting about how mean the government is while living in one of the best countries in the world.

[Coraline]

Visplane Overflow said:

nor have you lived in a dictatorship

Matt...lol...isn't living with your parents technically living in a dictatorship? If you're a kid, you don't really have much knowledge of the outside world except what mommy and daddy say, and you have to abide by that (well, most kids do anyway).

Also buddy..if you're pressing people to vote, at least have them vote on something fun and refreshing...;)

...kidding...;)

[myk]

Starke Von Oben said:
There is no way they would concede rights to anyone unless it profited them in some way.

Well, that's a starting point. In various points they do profit from conceding rights.

I do not believe for a start that voting has ever made a difference, and is simply a festival for powerful lobbies to stand before the people as a means of power sharing - it doesn't matter if a democrat or a republican is in power, for both serve the same principle essentially.

If you look at voting, and the way it's usually financed, it's some form of market practice. That said, you'll have to admit it's a form of channeling political demands. Those in power either listen to it to some degree or face social disruption. Other systems and times had other methods, but arguably, they were often more rudimentary or limited. We also have to consider the scale of modern society. Even relatively well-established individuals count for little, let alone some "nobody".

We were often told that soviet Russia was a dictatorship, that it only allowed a single party system. Personally I believe we have the same system, but we camouflage it the falsehood that there are two opposing parties fighting eachother over vastly diferent things.

The Soviets also had a right and left during Lenin's time. Later, the state became more totalitarian in Stalin's period.

The same thing happens in all so-called "democratic" western countries - our choices are dependant on what the all powerful political bodies decide to allow us to vote for.

Powerful, and often very, but all powerful? Nah... even if so, the inconsiderate use of such "all power" would come at a cost to them, analogous with using nuclear power.

Obama gives much lip service to change, but he's only doing so for the people behind him - his personality cult is an utter sham,

Even if you take it this way, his alleged lip service is an admittance of certain social demands. Addressing these in an insightful enough manner should push that bloodbath you refer to away.

[Visplane Overflow]

I still maintain that most of us here have an irrational fear or prejudice against the government. Sometimes it feels like people are talking about some alien creature...

The evil 'government' that we all keep talking about has never done anything to hurt its citizens, in fact, like I said before, people in North America enjoy one of the highest qualities of life in the world, they have innumerable opportunities offered to them and they have no fear of the Gestapo kicking down their doors and electrifying their gonads.

Oh boo hoo, the government wants me to pay taxes? They want me to follow their democratically established laws and rules?

What are you guys going to revolt against? Perspectives are out of whack; I'd like to see one of you try living in an impoverished village in Africa, or fight for Democracy in China, or keep the Iraqis from murdering their women. America is one of the finest nations on Earth, you have no right to bitch about how mean your leaders are. The simple fact that you are allowed to express how much you loathe them at all should be an indication of their fairness.

[Flesh420]

Visplane Overflow said:

Hippies and voting, what is it with you guys? Why is everyone so suspicious of the voting system? Unbelievable. They teach how important this stuff is in grade school, so I don't think I should need to explain it. Anyway, not a single one of you has ever been disenfranchised, nor have you lived in a dictatorship, so I would advise you to not draw wild conclusions just because you don't think your vote counts.

Also, to Starke : Let's make it perfectly clear that I have nothing to prove to you; I'm not the one living in paranoia, I'm not the one that refuses to vote, I'm not the one spreading nihilist bullshit around, and I'm definitely not the guy ranting about how mean the government is while living in one of the best countries in the world.

What is it with you people who think voting counts? Alls it take is a little bit of money and the electoral college can change there mind at the drop of the hat, your vote does not count they just go with what is popular. Im sorry buddy, but if everyone was a hippie the world would be a much much better place. The patriot act is my case for the gestapo trying to kick down my door. Why do you think people like Ron Paul are shown to be "Crazy" even though he is the only one talking any sense. Yes it is one of the best countries in the world but it wont be after we get robbed and raped from the bankers. The bailout was theft, and most american's where against it so how does our vote count again? What we are doing right now in this thread is why the two party system is here, too keep us arguing over nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_jd7E3Pno0

[Visplane Overflow]

Flesh420 said:

I'm sorry buddy, but if everyone was a hippie the world would be a much much better place.

Woodstock, Burning Man (any of them) - Hippies come in, get high for days on end, massacre the local ecosystem, fucking and shitting all over the place, leaving a massive stain on the earth composed of their body fluids and assorted piles of garbage. Oh yeah, hippies just make everything better, don't they?

The thing about hippies, is that they preach tolerance, they preach peace - but really, they're just as full of shit as anyone they bitch about. It's easy enough to say what they say, but if you're gonna talk the talk, then you better learn to walk the walk, God damn it. Hippies have never caused anything to change except the rate of venereal disease thanks to their tireless 'free love'.

[Flesh420]

lol god it feels good to be a hippie. Ill agree with you, those hippies where disguting. There is a difference between using and abusing. Some people smoke a leaf, to gain knowledge about themseves and others and too realize that there perception on things may not be right, not too get high as a kite for days on end and shit all over the place lol. It goes both ways, you see someone who smokes a little grass and call them a hippie because of others. You see a muslim so you think he is a terrorist because some others blew up a building. They where on acid, shit gets nuts on acid, but there is no excuse for there behavior. Why don't we keep the name calling to ourselves, I have yet to call anyone on this bored a name because of there beliefs. You need to smoke a joint and chill out MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN! The only thing I wanted to do in this thread was to make people think, a little pushy ya. Its me VS you, and its stupid but it sure is a damn good way to pass the time. Now lets all hold hands and get back to waving our lighters in the air.

[myk]

Flesh420 said:
What we are doing right now in this thread is why the two party system is here, too keep us arguing over nothing.

If that weren't the typical mentality preceding a dictatorship, I'd give it some credit. Unfortunately, life is much more convoluted and complex, and, in that context, stuff like blaming the government or ridiculing the hippies is at best inane blathering.

By pointing to the electoral college, which is a limitation on voting, or that there aren't federal plebiscites on certain economic topics, you're implying that there isn't enough bound to voting for it to make enough of a difference. Arguing against voting practices from there is delusional and follows other ulterior motives. "We'd need more voting to fix things, but since it isn't there, let's strip voting away!"

You see the government as a bunch of crooks with power, you'd take arms to get rid of them. What could you do, with such an initiative, but take their place? What would make this uprising in any way popular or representative of the interests of the population at large? What aptitudes are you showing that make you any better than, and not worse than, the usual politician?

It's easy to find simplistic answers for life's problems, yet delusional.

[Flesh420]

myk said:

If that weren't the typical mentality preceding a dictatorship, I'd give it some credit. Unfortunately, life is much more convoluted and complex, and, in that context, stuff like blaming the government or ridiculing the hippies is at best inane blathering.

By pointing to the electoral college, which is a limitation on voting, or that there aren't federal plebiscites on certain economic topics, you're implying that there isn't enough bound to voting for it to make enough of a difference. Arguing against voting practices from there is delusional and follows other ulterior motives. "We'd need more voting to fix things, but since it isn't there, let's strip voting away!"

You see the government as a bunch of crooks with power, you'd take arms to get rid of them. What could you do, with such an initiative, but take their place? What would make this uprising in any way popular or representative of the interests of the population at large? What aptitudes are you showing that make you any better than, and not worse than, the usual politician?

It's easy to find simplistic answers for life's problems, yet delusional.

I agree with you. I show none, thats why I "think" we need a whole new system altogether. Never said anything about taking away voting, just trying to say that money shouldnt be the thing that pushes certain votes. Life is that simple if we all allowed it too be. I also don't see everyone in government as crooks even though im sure I made myself too look that way. Its the few crooks with power that bothers "me". Lets face it, this thread has gotten a little out of hand, but good fun ay.

[Visplane Overflow]

myk said:

Unfortunately, life is much more convoluted and complex, and, in that context, stuff like blaming the government or ridiculing the hippies is at best inane blathering.

Unfortunately, injecting long pleonastic diatribes into discussions, debasing other points of view while not having one to yourself is at best inane blathering. Sheee-it, I can talk like you too =O

You've said nothing of interest in as many words as possible, I award you no points for this. Ridiculing hippies is not the same as blaming everything on the government. Making fun of people is essentially what you do, the only difference between you and me is that you sound more intelligent while you're doing it.

I think you've got a bit of an ego.

[Patrick]

In the end, whether or not you believe everything is orchestrated by some massive conspiracy or how things actually appear does not matter. It is always the intelligent who will end up running things. Wealth and intelligence are related. It does take a reasonably intelligent person to get wealthy in the first place. So whether or not things are run by a body of elected officials or some 'shadow government' there will always be intelligent people in power. These people would be running things regardless of what system of government is employed.

A dictatorship is not always a bad thing, nor is democracy always a good thing. The beliefs, habits and ways of life of a particular culture may not always be conducive to one 'universal' system of government.

[myk]

Visplane Overflow said:
debasing other points of view

It wasn't so much a point of view as the display of bigotry.

Making fun of people is essentially what you do,

Do not moan and keep in mind your membership here is subject to the arbitrary approval of those who moderate here, including myself. As far as I can tell, no one of any relevance cares about you and you've disgusted enough people to make your elimination an indifferent affair, if not a pleasure to some.

the only difference between you and me is that you sound more intelligent while you're doing it.

I don't know about intelligence, you're not stupid, but, since you like to compare, one main difference is that for some reason I'm more humane and less resentful or bitter than you.

Patrick said:
It is always the intelligent who will end up running things. Wealth and intelligence are related.

That doesn't address how they are related. I'd say the relation is that intelligence requires wealth to develop itself. That wealth does not need to be private wealth, so the personal acquisition of wealth doesn't need to be a requirement for governance and said acquisition can interfere with just or effective governance.

A dictatorship is not always a bad thing, nor is democracy always a good thing. The beliefs, habits and ways of life of a particular culture may not always be conducive to one 'universal' system of government.

Perhaps, but as far as capitalism is concerned, democracy allows it a degree of humanity by introducing mechanisms that check and alleviate some of its abuses.

[gravitar]

myk said:

Perhaps, but as far as capitalism is concerned, democracy allows it a degree of humanity by introducing mechanisms that check and alleviate some of its abuses.

In theory perhaps, but, as can be easily researched by looking at the so called democracies today, the wealthy/aristocratic elites will always find ways to sell the masses their dictatorship as "ruling of the people." Those "mechanisms" you mention will be, and are easily corrupted, under disguise.

[myk]

True, although that card about "ruling for the people" is also used by dictatorships that openly repress and kill the opposition. I mean massively, not in the more subtle ways used in more liberal societies. In democracy, even though the "for the people" principle tends to be hypocritical, it still has an effect on governance because the government will have to meet some of the demands to a certain degree and has difficulties using force against the population. A genocidal dictator in my country said the following, in the 70s:

The circumstances that prompted the Armed Forces to inexcusably occupy the void in power and recover order, public morality, interior security and economic stability for the Nation, were fully understood by the people, which share the fundamentals and aims of this Process.

Basically, they claimed that the people agreed with their policies... and those who didn't were "subversives" liable to being destroyed or beat down.