If I ever needed tech help before I need it now!

[Creaphis]

There's something that I suppose I've left unclear. What my computer is giving me aren't beep codes. I do know what beep codes are, because I've heard them before (way back when I was upgrading my RAM and bought the wrong kind, durrrrrr). Now, that little PC speaker or whatever else it is that beeps remains perfectly silent; the cycle I've described is a very silent and subtle cycle of repetitive hard drive activity. Furthermore, I've found many cases online of people with the same motherboard who have had their computer enter this state spontaneously. One day they try to turn their computer on and it just silently hums away forever - no BIOS editing or driver disabling or hardware installation is necessary to trigger this state. It seems like a textbook example of "badly made, unsupported motherboard bites the dust" to me.

That said, I accept that there's a chance, albeit slim, that resetting the BIOS will allow the computer to boot up again, and that the video card is, in fact, faulty, and would be detected and used by my computer if it wasn't. I will test these possibilities ASAP. Thank you.

Ah, it feels good to be typing on a proper keyboard again. (I'm at school.) My roommate's little netbook cramps my style.

[Belial]

My tower of win.

You'll probably run into a lot of titles that have issues with multicore cpus if you pick games from the 2001-2004 period (examples I've noticed - Deus Ex 2, Serious Sam 2, Unreal 2). For some reason games made in that era only work properly when I run them using a single core.

[Creaphis]

Super Jamie said:

Your motherboard will three pins with a jumper joining two which allow you to clear the settings and return to defaults. You can see it's the blue thing next to the battery. Switch this jumper from the 2 pins it's on to the other 2 pins (one pin will be shared), power on, power off, then switch the jumper back.

SHE LIVES

Maes said:

There should be a setting like "Video card priority" or "Initialize slot first" with the options "PCI", "PCIex" and "Integrated" somewhere.

Now that I'm back in my non-updatable BIOS I can tell you what options I actually have, here. These are the sum-total of all settings that seem even remotely relevant to what we're trying to accomplish.

Under "Advanced BIOS Features," there are two little menus, "Hard Disk Boot Priority" and "CD-ROM Boot Priority." Aside from these two submenus there are just some irrelevant settings and boot order settings. there is no "Video card priority" submenu.

Under "Advanced Chipset Features" I have a number of settings I don't understand, and two that could be relevant: "Frame Buffer Size" (which is currently set to 32M, and can be disabled) and "PCIE Spread Spectrum" (which is currently enabled).

That's it.

Try to see if it works in another system (yeah, even if that means asking a buddy with a computer for help, or taking it to a tech). It could very well be that you have a dud video card, especially if disabling the integrated resulted in beep cycles.

I'll definitely get it tested before I give myself any more headaches trying to make it turn over. Unfortunately my roommate isn't too eager to disassemble her rig to help me test the card, so I guess I'll have to go to a local computer store and offer to fuck somebody.

Thanks for all other info as well, it's all helping me.


EDIT: I just Googled "PCIE Spread Spectrum" and saw that it has something to do with modifying the power signal or clock or something of the PCI-e slots. I know it's a long shot, but... could this feature, in its enabled state, inadvertently be acting as a sort of speed limit for devices in the slots, preventing them from functioning correctly if they're too awesome?

EDIT AGAIN: If I changed the frame buffer up to 128M (its maximum) would I see improvement in the capability of my integrated GPU? Heck, I need something to tide me over.

[Super Jamie]

Creaphis said:

"Frame Buffer Size" (which is currently set to 32M, and can be disabled)

This sounds like how you disable your onboard video. It shares memory with the rest of the system. By not allocating any memory to the onboard videocard, I assume the chipset starts looking for video output elsewhere.

Obviously this option renders your onboard video useless so you'll lose video output from it, requiring a CMOS reset with the jumpers again if your PCIe card doesn't work after doing it.

Creaphis said:

"PCIE Spread Spectrum" (which is currently enabled).

Turn it off. Google if you want to understand why, but essentially it's not required and is better left disabled.

[Creaphis]

Super Jamie said:

This sounds like how you disable your onboard video. It shares memory with the rest of the system. By not allocating any memory to the onboard videocard, I assume the chipset starts looking for video output elsewhere.

Obviously this option renders your onboard video useless so you'll lose video output from it, requiring a CMOS reset with the jumpers again if your PCIe card doesn't work after doing it.

...I guess I might as well try this, one more time, before I have someone else look at the card. At least now I know how to reset my BIOS. I expect I will do so again, quite shortly.

EDIT: So, I turned this thing off and put the video card back in. I noticed that on its next boot up it had that same unhealthy delay I had noticed on earlier boots with the card in the case, lasting about fifteen seconds. I don't know what to make of this fifteen seconds. My computer is clearly affected by the video card. It's trying to do something with it. But then it gives up. After that, I entered the BIOS, disabled that PCIE spread spectrum thing and the frame buffer, switched VGA outlets, and... nothing. Just eternal blackness and repetitive noises.

I can't imagine that anything else is worth trying. Either the video card is DOA or the motherboard just can't use it.

Now I've raised the frame buffer to 128M, by the way. That might have given me an increase of 1 FPS in Doom 3, but I'm not sure.

[Nuxius]

Sorry to ask a stupid question, but you are plugging in the 6-pin PCI-E power plug to the back of the graphics card, correct? (you never stated this is why I am asking; I'm sure you did plug it in, though).

[Creaphis]

I sure did! But feel free to ask more stupid questions. I may be making some equally stupid error. But the only cable I left unused was the internal SPDIF.

[Super Jamie]

Did you end up getting a new PSU?

[Creaphis]

Yup. Antec, 430W. I'm sure that the card is getting enough power, unless Antec did something stupid like put the 20+4 pin main power cable, 4 pin +12 V cable and 6 pin PCI-e connector all on the same rail.

EDIT: Oh balls. I've just gotten rid of the power supply's packaging, because I was confident I'd have no reason to return it. If I end up buying a dual core motherboard, is that going to raise my power requirements higher than it can handle?

EDIT AGAIN: I just now realized that motherboards don't necessarily come with attached processor, so saying "dual core motherboard" is a little silly. There is just so much to learn.

[Super Jamie]

The PCIe connector is probably on its' own rail. That's how my modular Antec 550W is. You could always try disconnecting your drives and everything except the motherboard, fans and videocard just to see if it makes a difference.

You can build a dualcore on a 430W PSU no worries, you'll have about ~100W of headroom.

[Creaphis]

Super Jamie said:

The PCIe connector is probably on its' own rail. That's how my modular Antec 550W is. You could always try disconnecting your drives and everything except the motherboard, fans and videocard just to see if it makes a difference.

I could even grab my old PSU (I haven't recycled it yet), plug it back into the wall, open up my case and share the power supply duties between the two PSUs. If I spliced the PS_ON line of the unused main power plug to the used PS_ON line it work work perfectly. 730 W PSU for cheap!

A little bit more seriously, I don't think that blaming the PSU will lead to any fruitful discoveries. But, as I'm still more than happy to blame this motherboard, I should note that I have two fans and another couple devices pulling power out of the motherboard instead of directly from the PSU, and maybe the motherboard is just so pathetic that it can't handle that.

Eh, I really don't want to bother with any more little experiments until I have confirmation that the card works/doesn't work.

[Maes]

Videocard failures can be very frustrating, and motherboards handle them very differently.

E.g. I had my first PCIe video card die while the computer was functioning, idling on the desktop. I just went away for 20 minutes, and after I returned it had just shut off. While the card was in the slot, my motherboard wouldn't even start, at least with my 550 W PSU. Fans would make half a turn then stop, even the power indication LED on the mobo would die.

Trying the same card on a different motherboard, it did start with no problems, only that a few seconds later an orange glow and then a shower of sparks started originating from the video card.

Yup, something was definitively amiss. I was impressed by the varying levels of protection though: on my mobo and my PSU, starting was prevented, while the other mobo and PSU cheerfully started, only to let the magic smoke out :-/

I later discovered that the video card had also damaged parts of my motherboard when failing: even when plugging in new videocards, they only worked OK until I fired up anything using OpenGL/DirectX/Direct2D (even videos), then the whole system would freeze. Apparently the PCIe slot had been fux0r3d, and what's worse is that the "AGR" slot (a modified AGP slot, it was a transitional dual-slot mobo) of that mobo was also affected, so both AGP and PCIe video cards would no longer reliably work (I had to use PCI cards for a while...ugh).

That "silent drill" with the hard disk and stuff you're describing...can you be more specific? Does it actually behave as if it's loading the OS then hangs/reboots, or just a spin up - hard reboot - spin down - spin up etc. cycle without any hint of reading/writing activity?

However if you managed to boot up again the mobo is probably fine. A test with a known good video card will tell you more. My hint? Go buy a cheap PCIe card (a 6200 or 7300 or similar) for under $30, it will be better than your integrated and a decent fallback for similar events.

[Creaphis]

Maes said:

That "silent drill" with the hard disk and stuff you're describing...can you be more specific? Does it actually behave as if it's loading the OS then hangs/reboots, or just a spin up - hard reboot - spin down - spin up etc. cycle without any hint of reading/writing activity?

Neither, really. It's hard to explain. It doesn't reboot - the hard drive and fans keep spinning throughout - but I'm not sure it tries to load the OS either. There are signs of reading/writing activity, if blinks of the HD LED are signs of reading/writing activity. It's these blinks that almost immediately enter a cyclical pattern. I should note that when there's a disc in the DVD drive, then the DVD drive also enters its own endless cycle of pointless read activity. I think I have to resort to personification. The computer wonders, "Is there a disc in the DVD drive? Oh, okay. Is the hard drive working? Oh, okay. Now, is there a disc in the DVD drive? Ah, good, there is. But what about the hard drive? What sort of shape is it in? It's working? Great. The DVD drive, however, does it have a disc in it?" and etc.

[Aliotroph?]

This all sounds like a frustrating mess. I've read most of this thread and I still feel like I don't have enough information to give a useful next step.

So with that out of the way, I'm going to ask some simple stuff -- some of which may have been asked before:

• What exact motherboard do you have? It should say the model number both on the board itself, or perhaps more easily, on either the initial boot screen or in the BIOS setup. I ask, because it's easier to give suggestions if we can look at the manuals.
  
• Do you have a PC speaker plugged into your motherboard? This is important because if it thinks it's booting properly it will give one beep. If it has an error it will give a series of beeps representing an error code. You haven't mentioned any noises of this type. In addition to this, most boards have LEDs that display codes. How this works varies from one board to another -- hence the first question.
  
• Is there another computer nearby you can test this video card in? I know you probably don't have another, but if one of your friends has one then you might be able to see right away if that really is your problem.
  

Some of this may sound a bit redundant to you, but from reading the posts here it sounds like you're a bit lost. If we know exactly what you have then it's easy to look this stuff up with you. I apologize if you've mentioned these things. I had a look and I didn't find them. :)

EDIT: I just realized you mentioned beep codes. This is why I asked about the PC speaker. If everything is working you should always hear exactly one beep from the speaker just before the OS loads. When that doesn't happen either the speaker is gone (busted?) or something isn't working right.

[Super Jamie]

Aliotroph? said:

What exact motherboard do you have?

It's a FIC KTBC51G. There's sadly nothing on the FIC product page and Gateway Part Number page.

[Maes]

Creaphis said:

Neither, really. It's hard to explain. It doesn't reboot - the hard drive and fans keep spinning throughout - but I'm not sure it tries to load the OS either. There are signs of reading/writing activity, if blinks of the HD LED are signs of reading/writing activity.

Yup, I'd take that as a positive sign that the OS tries to load (BTW, are you using Vista/7?). I don't know what corrective actions these OSes take if they detect a problem, however XP will boot up to the desktop even with a "blind" video card.

[Aliotroph?]

I recall Vista doing the same. It doesn't necessarily mind if it can get a picture to the screen.

You have a motherboard from the world's most frustrating company. They provide zero documentation for anything! Knowing this, I will never knowingly buy one of their products.

Anyway, some Googling around revealed this, this, this and this.

The consensus seems to be your board is trash. That really sucks. :/

[Creaphis]

Aliotroph? said:

• Do you have a PC speaker plugged into your motherboard? This is important because if it thinks it's booting properly it will give one beep. If it has an error it will give a series of beeps representing an error code. You haven't mentioned any noises of this type. In addition to this, most boards have LEDs that display codes. How this works varies from one board to another -- hence the first question.

I know that this motherboard has a PC speaker attached to it somewhere (though I don't know where), because a while back when I was putting high-density RAM into this board (which it can't handle) it beeped at me like a banshee. However, it doesn't beep even once during a normal boot process.

Maes said:

Yup, I'd take that as a positive sign that the OS tries to load (BTW, are you using Vista/7?). I don't know what corrective actions these OSes take if they detect a problem, however XP will boot up to the desktop even with a "blind" video card.

I'm using XP MCE 2005. It doesn't boot to the desktop. I have three pieces of evidence confirming this:
-Recognizably different disc activity from a normal boot sequence.
-The startup sound (when the desktop appears) never plays from the speakers.
-Holding the power button down on the front of the case turns the computer off almost instantly, rather than initiates a boot-down process.

Aliotroph? said:
Anyway, some Googling around revealed this, this, this and this.

The consensus seems to be your board is trash. That really sucks. :/ [/B]

Yeah, I've come across these links already. My motherboard is cheap, mass-produced, proprietary garbage. Know what's really funny? I was wondering while reading some of these stories why these people would willingly buy the same terrible motherboard when their old ones fail. Any sane person would take the chance to upgrade. Know why they don't? Because everything in this computer is flipped from right to left, like a mirror image. The case is specifically designed to be incompatible with all other motherboards, and the motherboard is designed to be incompatible with all other cases. Gateway does not allow their customers to escape.

[Maes]

Well, before being overwhelmed by new waves of informaiton and tips, how'bout getting those PSU and video card tests done first?

[Creaphis]

Workin' on it.

[Creaphis]

I just had my video card tested at a local computer store. It works. I stumbled through a clumsy explanation as to why it would be good business to test the card for free, but I think he was going to anyway, so really I just made myself look like an ass.

Let me just make sure that I understand this next PSU test. First, I put the video card back in the case and plug the power supply into it. Then, I unplug the power cords from the hard drive and the DVD drive, and set up the fans to draw power directly from the PSU instead of from the motherboard. I boot up, enter the BIOS, and disable my frame buffer. Then, I save my changes, and the computer automatically restarts. I move my VGA cord from the integrated output to the video card's output. At this point, I will either see:

1. Some sort of text (probably error messages relating to the fact that every item in the entire boot priority is mysteriously missing) which would prove that my video card actually has the capacity to work in this computer, and that the problem has been insufficient power.

2. Nothing, driving the point home even further that the video card just won't work with the motherboard.

Is this right?

[Super Jamie]

Creaphis said:

Is this right?

Yes, except just leave the fans plugged into the motherboard or wherever they are now. The idea is to stop the hard drives and stuff from drawing power.

[Creaphis]

Then I'm only unplugging one hard drive and one DVD drive. Do they really use that much power?

[Super Jamie]

I thought of it when I wasn't sure if you had replaced your PSU or not. It might have made a difference back then, probably won't make a difference with your fancy new Antec :(

[Aliotroph?]

Creaphis said:

My motherboard is cheap, mass-produced, proprietary garbage. Know what's really funny? I was wondering while reading some of these stories why these people would willingly buy the same terrible motherboard when their old ones fail. Any sane person would take the chance to upgrade. Know why they don't? Because everything in this computer is flipped from right to left, like a mirror image. The case is specifically designed to be incompatible with all other motherboards, and the motherboard is designed to be incompatible with all other cases. Gateway does not allow their customers to escape.

It's just a micro-BTX board. Dell sells a lot of those too -- or at least they did when I was working there, especially in their gaming machines. I'm sure you could buy a different one if you really needed to, though I've never seen others that were socket-939. BTX was designed by Intel because they figured ATX was primitive and they could sell a pile of BTX stuff if they got everyone on the bandwagon. It didn't work and some of the more interesting features in their documentation (eg. CPUs at angles to improve airflow) didn't make it into most boards.

Maes and Super Jamie have you on the right track with that test. :)

[Creaphis]

Aliotroph? said:

Maes and Super Jamie have you on the right track with that test. :)

I can't imagine the power savings from unplugging the hard drive will make any difference to the video card, but I am curious about what the booting sequence will look like if there's no hard drive to spin. I guess I'll try it.

[Maes]

Creaphis said:

I can't imagine the power savings from unplugging the hard drive will make any difference to the video card, but I am curious about what the booting sequence will look like if there's no hard drive to spin. I guess I'll try it.

And in fact, they shouldn't, unless the PSU is so marginal that you must be scrounging for a few miserable watts, or something draws such anomalous amounts of current to choke even a 400W beast (and believe me, if 400 W were actually being dissipated on your motherboaard, you would be able to feel it. Many closed-type bread toasters/presses dissipate similar amounts of power on surfaces comparable to a motherboard).

It could be that the PSU is "only" unstable when delivering over a certain amount of power on certain rails, but only a test with a multimeter can tell you that.

If this was my mobo and the PSU checked out fine and stable, I'd try another video card first. If it couldn't work stably with ANY external video card, then I'd get another mobo.

[Creaphis]

Since I'm getting so quick at putting this card in and out, and at resetting my BIOS, I did this test. What I expected to happen, happened; delays were the same as they've always been (about 15 extra seconds before boot up when the video card is in the case but no settings have been changed, indefinite delay when the frame buffer is disabled). The only difference is that now, with no hard drive activity present, nothing interrupts the placid whirring of the fans.

I don't think it's worth it for me to pay anything for some older card. Yes, that could prove that this motherboard can work with older video cards. But, I want my motherboard to work with newer video cards. Preferably this one. Yes, that could give this computer increased game-playing capabilities. But, it still wouldn't be able to handle new stuff well, and this computer is already perfectly capable of playing new games badly, so little would be gained. If a 7-series GeForce card or something equivalent falls into my lap, I'll try it out, but I'd prefer to only invest in a forward direction. My plan is to let this video card sit on a shelf somewhere while I gather the knowledge and money necessary to complete this upgrade.

Or, now that I've committed to getting a new motherboard, thus changing the playing field, should I return this video card and get something completely different? It's an ASUS-made 9800GT, for those who just tuned in.

[Super Jamie]

I would return the card then get a new case (Antec P182B), a good full-size ATX motherboard (Asus or Gigabyte with P45 chipset), Intel C2D and a better card (ATI 4670). But that's just me.

[Nuxius]

The Antec P182B has been refreshed with the P183 now. ;)

Also, don't go for P45/Core 2. They have been outclassed by AMD's offerings in their respective price ranges. Of course, moving on up in performance, Intel has the Core i5/i7, but I honestly don't think you need that much power with what you are doing.

Also, keep in mind that if you are still using the OS that shipped with your Gateway, then you will have to purchase a new one for the new computer, as that OS installation is permanently tied to your Gateway.