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Hellbent

and Creaphis can be one of the judges...

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So it's that time again where Hellbent posts an idea for a community project/competition thingy. This one is simple: make a doom map that looks good but detail and architecture need to serve the gameplay. Cause like that sunder.wad is awesome, at least the first level (haven't quite finished it yet), but it inspired me to make this post.

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ArmouredBlood said:

That's how I always try to map now =/


What, 7.6?


Hellbent said:

... make a doom map that looks good but detail and architecture need to serve the gameplay.


I would suggest that this isn't so much an idea for a particular community mapset as it is a consideration for making any map really.


Cause like that sunder.wad is awesome, at least the first level (haven't quite finished it yet), but it inspired me to make this post.


See I agree that Sunder was awesome. I have played through a lot of it and I actually think the architecture really serves the overall immersion in the levels. (except for those times where you would get stuck on small details while running around avoiding 6 gazillion revenants and die) While I totally agree that all architecture must serve this overall immersion and player challenge/enjoyment, I don't think that gameplay should automatically always be exalted over everything else. Just as long as the architecture doesn't frustrate players and destroy their immersion in a level, it doesn't matter whether a level is uber detailed, or whether it has classic Vanilla styling. I mean, I really liked KDiZD, and Thunderpeak is one of my favorite maps ever, but at the same time, I love vanilla style maps like NMD, most of Espi's stuff and more recently Khorus' "Base Ganymede".

Long story short: these maps all have something brilliant, almost intangible about them, and putting gameplay at the top of everything can, but does not necessarily guarantee that result.

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This is a great idea, except it's really not. To suggest that detail should serve any purpose but an aesthetic one is silly IMO. If you detail a room properly, it plays the same no matter what.

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I think it would be cooler if we built a small twisted bright church map.The player has to kill ridiculous numbers of Hellknights which guard a lost UAC machine and destroy some demon gateway

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This doesn't really seem like a good basis for a challenge, really. I mean, I could make a huge serpentine maze and technically the whole thing is functional.

I think you need a subjective quality that's easier to judge - like, say, the best dark map. Have people submit maps that make the best use of darkness. Or go for a theme that isn't too overdone, like "cliffs and valleys" or "ancient ruins".

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Craigs said:

I think it would be cooler if we built a small twisted bright church map.The player has to kill ridiculous numbers of Hellknights which guard a lost UAC machine and destroy some demon gateway


I like this, but have you also considered building a vast torn apart dark hell map. The player has to kill some Spectres and find a BFG9k

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And I will generate a map with Oblige, then generate a review with the review generator.

This map would be less enjoyable if there were more Spider Masterminds.

The doom community should be entirely automated these days.

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It can actually make sense in a cool way O.o

Doom map idea generator said
Build a cramped out of power dark laboratory map.
The player has to find some skull key which is hidden behind ridiculous numbers of demon gateway and
kill some Icon of Sin which guard a lost UAC machine


I like.

@ kyka; yes.

REALLY on topic; Sounds like you want a project that makes nice looking maps with good gameplay like sunder's. Which will be interesting considering those are mostly slaughter maps and I'm not sure how many people posting in this thread make them ...

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ArmouredBlood said:

It can actually make sense in a cool way O.o


I like.

@ kyka; yes.

REALLY on topic; Sounds like you want a project that makes nice looking maps with good gameplay like sunder's. Which will be interesting considering those are mostly slaughter maps and I'm not sure how many people posting in this thread make them ...

I prefer cleverly implemented monsters over slaughter maps. I like sunder map01 more for its layout than the slaughter aspect of it. How the pillars are situated and the stairs and everything together are conducive to good gameplay. An example of this, along with an example of detail having function: there are two sectors on either side of the door that lets all the imps in. After you kill all the imps and get the SSG and hit the switch, when you come back, you can use those two sectors to snipe at the chaingun guys because they block your shot from hitting anything below them. Very clever (although they may have been a coincidence as I don't know how many people play with autoaim).

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40oz said:

The doom community should be entirely automated these days.


Agreed. If you think about it, our current methods for mapping, writing, etc., are crude "wooden table" processes. Really, human beings shouldn't need to be involved at all.

At the very least, we should future-proof the Doom community by automating more and more parts of the community's activity. Imagine: ten years after the last of us moves on or kicks the bucket, procedurally-generated wads with their procedurally-generated text files could still be being uploaded to an archive service (which would accept or reject them programmatically). Doomworld's /idgames mirror would then periodically run a script and update itself (as I believe it already does). Once some arbitrary number of new wads arrives in the archive, reviews are randomly generated for them, compiled, and uploaded to Doomworld's front page by another script. Then, the coup de gras: forum bots would write randomly-generated responses to these reviews, but would also populate all other boards with their posts. These bots would react to and repeat the content posted by each other, much like how ELIZA converses with a human user, and would also be interfaced with Google trends so that they could have rudimentary awareness of current events, and continue to fill the Everything Else board with lively, topical discussion.

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As said; the Doom community should be entirely automated. Bots making maps, bots playing the maps, bots posting in the forums.

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darkreaver said:

bots playing the maps


Right, of course. I forgot about that somehow.

This is actually starting to look like the plot to Thief 2.

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...And just to add some irony to the whole thing, all of these future Forum bots would obviously be named after presently living forum members.


For example, the CreaphisBot would be programmed to always take contrary positions just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments.




My bot, of course, would need to lurk more.

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Fisk said:
This is a great idea, except it's really not. To suggest that detail should serve any purpose but an aesthetic one is silly IMO. If you detail a room properly, it plays the same no matter what.

I played one of your recent maps. It was dull to play and the details felt tacked in and uninteresting.

Kyka said:
For example, the CreaphisBot would be programmed to always take contrary positions just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments.

But poor Creaphis, I believe, based on empirical evidence, has been tricked by his title to shorten the length of his legendary posting. There's a logic in this, with his tendency to take the contrary position forcing him to take one contrary to what the title says, at least in some key respects.

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Creaphis said:

Then, the coup de gras

Which weapon slot holds the chunk of lard, again?

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myk said:

But poor Creaphis, I believe, based on empirical evidence, has been tricked by his title to shorten the length of his legendary posting. There's a logic in this, with his tendency to take the contrary position forcing him to take one contrary to what the title says, at least in some key respects.



Creaphis' new custom title: "I always agree with everyone, regardless of any inherent contradictions this may cause. I accomplish this with few words."


This should see a return to form, if only to be contrary with this new custom title.

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My bot would probably be programmed to hallucinate. And probably named "Botts" or "Ro-butt" (like robot butt, geddit?? hahaha!!!!!!!) or just "Butts".

And it would be programmed to post stupid shit, full of sarcasm and lacking in wit.

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myk said:

But poor Creaphis, I believe, based on empirical evidence, has been tricked by his title to shorten the length of his legendary posting. There's a logic in this, with his tendency to take the contrary position forcing him to take one contrary to what the title says, at least in some key respects.


True.

Gez said:

Which weapon slot holds the chunk of lard, again?


Haha, yeah, I realized afterward that I screwed that up. I probably have the highest lines:errors ratio of any poster here so I think it's forgivable.

Butts said:

And it would be programmed to post stupid shit, full of sarcasm and lacking in wit.


That's fine, as long as it occasionally produces cute rhymes.

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Creaphis said:

That's fine, as long as it occasionally produces cute rhymes.


The poems will be programmed to appear at random times,
spewing profligacy and random rhymes.
The tempo would be slightly off-kilter,
and sound like the poet had no brain-filter.
The poems would probably suck,
and people would maybe say fuck.
Who cares about syllables and patterns and time,
when all that matters is the flow and the rhyme?
The poems will be like lame stories,
boring and useless and void of nude whories

Well here it is,
my rhyme cums to an end
I suck at the biz,
and suck, the poems tend.

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myk said:

I played one of your recent maps. It was dull to play and the details felt tacked in and uninteresting.


Dang. Well, thank you for playing it anyway. :(

Well hey, was I wrong? It would play the same even if the tacked on detail wasn't there, right? :)

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My bot would make shitloads of temperature puns, be extremely hostile to pretty much everyone, and get kicked out of every Skulltag server for abusing cheap weapons (AoW2's flamethrower RULES!)

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Fisk said:

It would play the same even if the tacked on detail wasn't there, right? :)


This would only be true if we had all been replaced by bots. But seeing as there are still actual humans playing this game, then a level that looks really good adds so much more to the feel and the immersion for soemone playing it, even if the gameplay would otherwise be the same.

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Butts said:

The poems will be programmed to appear at random times,
spewing profligacy and random rhymes.
The tempo would be slightly off-kilter,
and sound like the poet had no brain-filter.
The poems would probably suck,
and people would maybe say fuck.
Who cares about syllables and patterns and time,
when all that matters is the flow and the rhyme?
The poems will be like lame stories,
boring and useless and void of nude whories

Well here it is,
my rhyme cums to an end
I suck at the biz,
and suck, the poems tend.


6/10 would not read again

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