Skulltag has a new home

[Captain Ventris]

AlexMax said:

He's all hat and no cattle, as they say in Texas.

Do we? D:

[Patrick]

I don't browse skulltag or the skulltag forums too much, so if I'd tried to get on the site, I'd have no idea it would have changed to a new one. Thanks for the heads up!

[Carnevil]

There's a few things you're both (AlexMax and SoulPriestess) leaving out.

a). I didn't need anything returned to me, so that's all moot. All of the skulltag.com files still exist. They just copied everything over to the new host - they did not erase what was there currently. All downloading her database would accomplish would be to keep all of the posts made in the week or so since the move. It's not really a big deal, or necessary.

b). She was going to keep everything on skulltag.net in tact - the forum (though she claimed she would wipe the posts), site, staff, etc. In this case, what would be the point of me bringing my site back? All it would do is fracture the community and cause extreme chaos. This isn't what I'm after.

c). In the above scenario, I took her up on it. I told her fine, let's do that. I joined their special chatroom, and was verbally assaulted by the entire staff. It was an empty promise. She had no intention of honoring it. Like she said, it was impulsive, and she later "came to her senses".

@BBG: Thank you! I never thought you'd be sticking up for me, but it certainly is a welcome surprise. I obviously agree with what you said.

Sorry to jump in here guys and keep this all going, but I have to clear that all up. I don't expect to change anyone's minds, but I don't want misinformation out there.

[Creaphis]

Without jumping in to take his side, I have to say that I feel bad for Carn. I can't imagine finding myself divorced from something I had put so much effort into. If you're reading this Carn (Edit: oh, hi there!), I'm sorry, for what little that's worth.

Though it wouldn't heal any hurt feelings, a useful arbitrator on this matter would be the contract by which power was given to Rivecoder, so that we could see if Carnevil technically did wash his hands of Skulltag a few years ago. Though, I'm guessing it was just a verbal agreement, based on the conflicting ideas of whose project it is, exactly.

One other thought: the top news post on Skulltag.com, much like the newspost here on Doomworld, is primarily a notice about a URL change. Weighing it on its own merits (ignoring any reputation Carn may have from events that have previously occurred), I feel that Carn's presentation of the issue is level-headed and understandable. Accusations of immaturity or attention-whoring are completely unfair. What the man is, is sentimental. Forgive him.

[LexiMax]

Carnevil said:

c). In the above scenario, I took her up on it. I told her fine, let's do that. I joined their special chatroom, and was verbally assaulted by the entire staff. It was an empty promise. She had no intention of honoring it. Like she said, it was impulsive, and she later "came to her senses".

Fair enough. I'm just going off the information I have avaiable.

[infurnus1]

Creaphis said:

One other thought: the top news post on Skulltag.com, much like the newspost here on Doomworld, is primarily a notice about a URL change. Weighing it on its own merits (ignoring any reputation Carn may have from events that have previously occurred), I feel that Carn's presentation of the issue is level-headed and understandable. Accusations of immaturity or attention-whoring are completely unfair. What the man is, is sentimental. Forgive him.

Said news post links to this article: http://www.skulltag.com/theft/
Which says this:

Carnevil's website said:

The team I put in charge to take care of my baby was now telling me what I could and couldn't do, and overriding me. The team I put in charge to manage Skulltag was taking control of Skulltag.

This doesn't seem very level-headed, but it does seem understandable.
I don't think we should be acting like Carnevil is a total victim here, there are a number of things both sides could have done to prevent this and he is not entirely innocent himself. This does not mean we shouldn't forgive him though.


I'm not even going to touch the BBG post.

[Doom Marine]

Carnevil said:

Now, this came at a time when the community was getting particularly unruly. Ralphis had reared his ugly head once again, and several others, such as phucket and Doom Marine, were intentionally causing trouble on IRC and on the forums. Getting sick of it, and making an attempt at getting the community under control (one of my criticisms of Rivecoder and staff's management), I did the logical thing and banned them. It wasn't the first time they had caused trouble, purgatory hadn't caused them to improve their behavior, and I had the support of the other admins at the time.

Carnevil said:

Getting sick of it, and making an attempt at getting the community under control

Carnevil said:

getting the community under control

Carnevil said:

control

The paradox of internet (community) and control is the more you try to control it, the more aggressive the trolls gets, and the less control you have.

From the way you wrote it, there is lack of control of the community on your part because you have a short temper and unable to control yourself... there is nothing but fail. Stop trying to control the trolls and go back to coding.

EDIT: Actually, you did the right thing by giving up control of the skulltag community. The terrorists have won, life goes back to its crude and vulgar normalcy. Carry on.

[Naked Snake]

Carnevil said:

There's a few things you're both (AlexMax and SoulPriestess) leaving out.

a). I didn't need anything returned to me, so that's all moot. All of the skulltag.com files still exist. They just copied everything over to the new host - they did not erase what was there currently. All downloading her database would accomplish would be to keep all of the posts made in the week or so since the move. It's not really a big deal, or necessary.

b). She was going to keep everything on skulltag.net in tact - the forum (though she claimed she would wipe the posts), site, staff, etc. In this case, what would be the point of me bringing my site back? All it would do is fracture the community and cause extreme chaos. This isn't what I'm after.

c). In the above scenario, I took her up on it. I told her fine, let's do that. I joined their special chatroom, and was verbally assaulted by the entire staff. It was an empty promise. She had no intention of honoring it. Like she said, it was impulsive, and she later "came to her senses".

@BBG: Thank you! I never thought you'd be sticking up for me, but it certainly is a welcome surprise. I obviously agree with what you said.

Sorry to jump in here guys and keep this all going, but I have to clear that all up. I don't expect to change anyone's minds, but I don't want misinformation out there.

np Carn. I have a question. Would you be willing to compromise for the better of all? I have a proposed solution.

The current team can use the currently existing resources under the following conditions :

-The fork project must create a new name that is not similar to Skulltag, unless approved by Carnevil. Its logo must be different.

-Carnevil and others must be credited for their creation of the resources in the new project, by name, prominently in all documentation and "about pages" and all that. In other words, you can have your fork project, but Carn gets his credit where it is due.

-The Fork team not engage in any hostilities towards Carnevil if he chooses to continue with the same resources on the original Skulltag project, nor condone / allow others in their community to do so.

I believe these conditions give both sides a fair chance to represent the wishes of the community.

[Ralphis]

Doom Marine said:

The paradox of internet (community) and control is the more you try to control it, the more aggressive the trolls gets, and the less control you have.

From the way you wrote it, there is lack of control of the community on your part because you have a short temper and unable to control yourself... there is nothing but fail. Stop trying to control the trolls and go back to coding.

For what it's worth, I wasn't really trolling as much as I was pissed for being banned from the master server because I was using a name which mocked a prominent skulltag moderator in a private coop server and being told that I wouldn't be unbanned because of it.

My ugly head inspires rage

[infurnus1]

Naked Snake said:

-The fork project must create a new name that is not similar to Skulltag, unless approved by Carnevil. Its logo must be different.

Please do not encourage fracturing the community.

Naked Snake said:

-Carnevil and others must be credited for their creation of the resources in the new project, by name, prominently in all documentation and "about pages" and all that. In other words, you can have your fork project, but Carn gets his credit where it is due.

This is already being done, and has already been done, do not take the "stealing" and "theft" too literally.(this goes to Carnevil as well)

Naked Snake said:

-The Fork team not engage in any hostilities towards Carnevil if he chooses to continue with the same resources on the original Skulltag project, nor condone / allow others in their community to do so.

This is already being done if I'm not mistaken.

[Phobus]

Does this mean we over at the zTheatre need some sort of drama to get our title back?

[Captain Ventris]

Phobus said:

Does this mean we over at the zTheatre need some sort of drama to get our title back?

Yes. I've just made a thread about my Christmas trip to London. Let's find a way to trash it. I'll edit my post to include as many stereotypes as possible. We can work from there.

[Xenaero]

Skulltag has no intention to rename itself. I don't know why Alex is trying to force the issue. :X

Also BBG, we don't intend to change who's been credited. You think we'd take Carn's name out of everything? Haha, come on man.

Carnevil said:

c). In the above scenario, I took her up on it. I told her fine, let's do that. I joined their special chatroom, and was verbally assaulted by the entire staff. It was an empty promise. She had no intention of honoring it. Like she said, it was impulsive, and she later "came to her senses".

You weren't verbally assaulted. You left in a storm of rage, presumably because I started talking. You actually came in with a pretty bad attitude to begin with, which highlights the terrible idea of inviting you when all this was still fresh. Do you want the log of that session publicized? I'm fully willing to share it in a public medium if that'll help. If there were facts left out, why didn't you include them in your page on skulltag.com?

[Naked Snake]

I never said you guys wouldn't remove Carn from the credits, I'm just listing it as a condition for the sake of it being said and understood.

[Xenaero]

Naked Snake said:

I never said you guys wouldn't remove Carn from the credits, I'm just listing it as a condition for the sake of it being said and understood.

Well yeah, we aren't heartless monsters. It doesn't even need to be said and understood, because literally nothing other than Carn not having power over other users has changed. It's not like we've banned him from anything Skulltag related. Carn's still credited with what he's done (which is a lot) and the community mostly still respects him as such. I'm sure in a week this whole thing will have calmed down.

[stewboy]

Carnevil said:
I joined their special chatroom, and was verbally assaulted by the entire staff. It was an empty promise. She had no intention of honoring it.

Could you or someone else provide some logs of this?

Edit: Somehow I've missed several posts.

[LexiMax]

Xenaero said:

Skulltag has no intention to rename itself. I don't know why Alex is trying to force the issue. :X

You misinterpret me. I personally think it's a good idea for searching purposes (because of all the old links scattered around the internet that link to skulltag.com), but nowhere near necessary. There was a thread made for name suggestions, but it was a 'fun' thread, only because I figured that if it did happen, you might as well have a decent name lined up. The thread went completely off the rails into silliness by the second half of the first page anyway.

[duvel]

Oh hey since Carn's here I feel like I can post my opinion.

Carn, you're a baby.

Other folks at Skulltag HQ, you're idiots.

Thanks for the hilarious shitstorms though. Been a while since I've bothered to look at community drama.

[Xenaero]

stewboy said:

Could you or someone else provide some logs of this?

Yeah I don't see a problem with that.

http://pastebin.com/f6db76032

[Carnevil]

Xenaero said:

Do you want the log of that session publicized? I'm fully willing to share it in a public medium if that'll help.

I'll do you one better! I'll put up my entire log of that channel, which includes your de-admining, me being plenty involved in the staff before I was kicked out (one of the big claims is that I was just some rogue outsider trying to control things. Not true at all! Read the log!), and obviously the big confrontation where I enter the channel after agreeing to SoulPriestess's proposal.

http://www.skulltag.com/theft/stmodsspecial.Skulltag.log

Enjoy!

[esselfortium]

<@Carnevil> That kid's been a terror since he's been like 13
- Carnevil discussing Ralphis

[Creaphis]

These chatlogs are fascinating.

Carn's point that he appointed Rivecoder as a manager, and not as an owner, is a good one. All the points relating to Carn's popularity/recent contributions/banning policies are really quite irrelevant to the matter of who Skulltag actually belongs to. Forgive me for being infected by Doomworld's legalistic culture, but I think I have to side with Carn on this one, for the good or ill of the Skulltag community (something I have little concern for).

[ArmouredBlood]

Xenaero said:

http://www.skulltag.com/theft/stmodsspecial.Skulltag.log

Carnevil said:

http://www.skulltag.com/theft/stmodsspecial.Skulltag.log

=/ I'm surprised and have lost a little more faith in humanity if that's how admins in other forums deal with problems ...

Not that any of you involved would care, but here're my suggestions;

- Agree on a way to fix whatever server/hosting problems you have and put the site back on the domain.

- Power structure of the admins needs to be defined IN A POST VIEWABLE BY ALL. Whether that means Carnevil at the top with current admins directly under him, a sort of republic with Carn as first admin but the other admins *as a group* can veto choices, Carn put equal to the other admins, WHATEVER, it should be clearly defined so something like this won't happen.

- Finish the admin protocols or w/e you want to call them, I'm really surprised any forum with skulltag's following would be so disorganized. This should help with whatever crap comes up from trolls (not much experience here, but Ralphis was plenty tolerable from the posts I've seen. Which could just mean the mods here are good at removing the crap ;) No comment on others).

Now to get flamed out of existence for telling admins how to do their job ...

[Doom Marine]

esselfortium said:

<@Carnevil> That kid's been a terror since he's been like 13
- Carnevil discussing Ralphis

Said the same guy who analogied my trolling to mass murder.

[Graf Zahl]

Asserting 'ownership' over a product that lives or dies with its community sounds ridiculous to me.

Seriously, the best outcome I can see here for Carn is that he may get 'his website back'. After that it will die because there's no community to back it anymore.

So no matter what is done, if Carn gets his wish is a lose-lose for everyone. He'll be the owner of a dead product and the current administration is forced to start over if they can't use the Skulltag name anymore.


Maybe giving a little incentive to work things out is in order:

I made an agreement with Skulltag to use GZDoom's renderer despite being closed source. If for whatever reason the Skulltag name cannot be used anymore that agreement is void.

I'm not willing to condone such drama nonsense as is going on here so if I have to use brute force to make you guys cool off your heads and work out your issues, so be it!



I don't care who is right and who is wrong. Reading that chat log I can either blame no one or everyone. Carn clearly overreacted but the current administration surely didn't think things through either.

[Naked Snake]

If the Fork project goes open source and Skulltag does as well, I see no issue, but thanks for creating another one, whine-baby.

[DaniJ]

I've been watching this situation unfold from the sidelines. For what its worth, I have this to say:

Skulltag is Carnevils. End of story. Other devs may come and go and ultimately Carn may step back from active development but that in no way should be seen as disowning (unless described as such by Carn himself).

It is Carnevil's responsibility to ensure that the people working on Skulltag are doing so toward the goals he set for his project (unless disowned).

From what I can see, the core issue is whether Skulltag is now being developed by a democratic republic, or caretakers in the absence of Carnevil.

[Naked Snake]

DaniJ said:

I've been watching this situation unfold from the sidelines. For what its worth, I have this to say:

Skulltag is Carnevils. End of story. Other devs may come and go and ultimately Carn may step back from active development but that in no way should be seen as disowning (unless described as such by Carn himself).

It is Carnevil's responsibility to ensure that the people working on Skulltag are doing so toward the goals he set for his project (unless disowned).

From what I can see, the core issue is whether Skulltag is now being developed by a democratic republic, or caretakers in the absence of Carnevil.

Yeah, it seems this was less of a case of passing the torch more-as it was Carnevil putting the torch on a stand and said "guard the fort, I'll BRB". BRB just happened to be 3 years.

[John Smith]

Phobus said:

Does this mean we over at the zTheatre need some sort of drama to get our title back?

The ZDoom theatre will always be exactly that. But it's drama reads like you would imagine the novelization of a padded cell to read. Boring and almost...kind. This is popcorn-requiring material.

Anyhow I knew this thread would become a bunch of skulltag internal drama explanation bullshit as soon as the news item was approved. Actually I knew when I first heard someone talk about it on IRC, but whatever. Almost all Skulltag threads on DW end up as a shitfest, and one like this certainly didnt bring promises of changing that pattern.

So... for the people who dont give a shit abut ST internal politics, change your bookmark to skulltag.net and call it a night. Dont lose sleep. For those involved in skulltag internal leadership politics, well, kill yourself. Especially those people in the IRC channel. Seriously. A bunch of high schoolers arguing about who gets the mostest credit for the volcano project (and therefore who gets to keep it) is pretty much what that log amounts to.

[Craigs]

[16:16:23] <@Metalhead> Are you going to continue to develope Skulltag?
[16:16:26] <@Metalhead> (again)
[16:16:39] <@Carnevil> I doubt it
[16:16:41] <@Carnevil> Does it matter?
[16:16:44] <@Metalhead> Yep.
[16:16:49] <@Carnevil> Lucas isn't making any more Star Wars movies, is he?

Last time I checked Lucas pretty much butchered the star wars series towards the end so... great comparison Carnevil. That's almost as good as when you compared Huy insulting you to murdering 100 people.