Why expect perfection?

[Graf Zahl]

40oz said:

Alando, I encourage you to continue making wads, but I would prefer that you also try to stay in the loop of knowing what wads are in demand.

What's 'in demand' is not necessarily good. Case in point: Nearly every modern game as in overreliance on visuals but lack in gameplay.

[Creaphis]

I prefer a more inclusive definition of art. If "art" is incompatible with "purpose," then we have never seen art. Every artwork that is released into the world by its creator carries within it the purpose to entertain, or more subtly to create emotion or esoteric perceptual experience, or more practically to provide wealth or fame for the creator. The only true art would be that which is created for the sake of creating it, and then kept hidden from the world - not selfishly, but simply because the creator has no reason to make it visible - and then, the only way others could ever see this true art is for a third party to discover it and make it known.

Good games are fun, and are played. How is "fun" fundamentally different from other emotional experience? How is participatory playing fundamentally unlike participatory reading, listening or watching? What justification can be given for a more exclusive division between "art" and "not-art"? I would have chosen the terms "art" and "craft," but I do not even see them as mutually exclusive - why should they be?

[Use]

Graf Zahl said:

Nearly every modern game as in overreliance on visuals but lack in gameplay.

Where do you find the time to work on GZdoom and still play all the new Xbox360, Wii, PS3 and PC games?

[myk]

Creaphis said:
I prefer a more inclusive definition of art. If "art" is incompatible with "purpose," then we have never seen art. Every artwork that is released into the world by its creator carries within it the purpose to entertain, or more subtly to create emotion or esoteric perceptual experience, or more practically to provide wealth or fame for the creator. The only true art would be that which is created for the sake of creating it, and then kept hidden from the world - not selfishly, but simply because the creator has no reason to make it visible - and then, the only way others could ever see this true art is for a third party to discover it and make it known.

Reasoning and semantics can be misleading. A rewording might help:

Art tends to be incompatible with or is opposed to other purposes, such as chopping down trees or sailing down rivers, but is oriented toward an aesthetic purpose, which is the unrestrained and self-referencing exploitation of a medium. It can and will use external references or materials to do this, but these are all subservient to its aesthetic purpose.

Good games are fun, and are played. How is "fun" fundamentally different from other emotional experience? How is participatory playing fundamentally unlike participatory reading, listening or watching? What justification can be given for a more exclusive division between "art" and "not-art"? I would have chosen the terms "art" and "craft," but I do not even see them as mutually exclusive - why should they be?

Art tends to mean aesthetic development while craft leans toward usability. Games are also challenging, as well as fun. Both art and games can posses these qualities you named, but you can also choose to create a WAD for gaming purposes or artistic purposes.

Gaming limits art in the same way art is restricted by commercialization. Want to sell a music CD? You'll be much safer following certain formulas that ensure profit, instead of freeing yourself artistically in such a way as to only attract the attention of a select and refined aesthete audience. Want to create a sword that is good for a knight in the field? Make it balanced, enduring and deadly. Want an decorative sword for the king's chamber? Feel free to make a beautiful and stylish yet potentially unwieldy and fragile ornament.

Likewise, want to create good DOOM playability? You'll have to subject your work to standards that will be suitable for interactive play, based on the needs and skills of players. You can also make a WAD for art's sake, and some indeed go in that direction. You could argue crappy joke WADs like Whispers of Startan and Knee Deep in KDiZD are more about a simple form of art than gaming, I'd say. As I noted above, I think it's more rewarding to focus on the gaming aspect, simply because of how fun the game can be. If you really want to focus on the artistic aspect, it might be wise not to really waste energies trying to adapt it to the usability of play as well.

The output of a game level depends on playing requirements, mainly, passing through technical limitations. Art depends only on technical specifications and will abuse anything else in order to exploit them to create unpredictable effects.

[AveryMaurice]

I couldn't give two shits how good the WAD is, It's free anyways, nothing lost.

[pavera]

Except maybe time that could have been spent playing a good wad. Or having sex.

[Ninjalah]

Krispavera said:

Except maybe time that could have been spent playing a good wad. Or having sex.

Like all of the sexy Doomers here do on their free time. Right? RIGHT!?

[Nomad]

Is it an attainable life goal to have sex while playing doom?

[AveryMaurice]

Nomad said:

Is it an attainable life goal to have sex while playing doom?

Yes, multitasking sex + Doom makes you a god on these forums. I don't care what anyone says.

[SyntherAugustus]

If this thread exists that means you're taking things too seriously.

[gravitar]

?

There are lots of perfect wads, as there is alot of perfect art. Depends on your definition of perfection ofcourse.

[Lüt]

alando1 said:

Why would people look for perfection?

Because, within the limits of Doom, it's possible.

[Airman266]

Henceforth I shall endeavor to become a Doomworld forums god...

Seriously though, in my personal opinion, alando needs to stfu and color.

[PhilibusMo]

Alando1, you really need to learn that respect needs to be earned and you can't get it by just bitching about not getting any respect. Infact its a sure fire way to loose any respect you may already have had.

[Dutch Doomer]

I'm not mapping to earn respect.

[azureace]

PhilibusMo said:

Alando1, you really need to learn that respect needs to be earned and you can't get it by just bitching about not getting any respect. Infact its a sure fire way to loose any respect you may already have had.

I would have to Agree with Phil on this, I submitted 3 wads In the past 2 months none of them were major hits and none were really major misses.(at least in my own view) Now Alando how is this for kickers I can count all of the reviews for my three wads together on one hand,and even because of that I did not post a thread to give a rather wordy and preachy lecture about why does every one seek perfection, I just sat on it and took the advice from the 2 reviews that were positive and then ignored the other one due to its rather extreme and harsh reaction (the poster wanted me to "Jump off a bridge and save us from your mapping abilities" which I found VERY amusing actually.

But back on to topic, Alando you are starting to go a little over board Because it seems to me IMO, that you are not wanting any more 3 star or less reviews and ratings because of that fact you feel your talents are being stereo typed to your past efforts and thus everything is being held to the same light, not to mention your efforts are being held to the standards of the works of our own "Michelangelos, Leonardos, Picassos, And Rembrandts" (if you can understand what i mean i refer to those who mad the wad files that are considered to this day still being a MUST play)

What you need to do Alando if your Serious about this and serious about wanting decent recognition, you need to follow the running trend of Wads being put out,and make a choice to either follow the trend or don't follow it, but the main thing is your effort has to STAND OUT. it has to blow us away or at least get some people talking and then the word will spread and other people will try it and then boom there ya go. and the one thing to remember is that it takes TIME and Patience.

[Nomad]

dutch devil said:

I'm not mapping to earn respect.

I'm pretty sure that's not what Phil means.

[PhilibusMo]

Alando, if you want to try having a fair and completely impartial review of your work may I suggest you try this:

Work on a 1-2 map wad. Make it as good as you possibly can, post it on the forum to see what people think but under a new name that ISN'T alando1 so that there isn't a prejudice against the map due to your previous track record. Take on board peoples critacisms and try to carry out the suggestions that they come up with, spend a good amount of time refining the map and its gameplay and feel. Once it has gotten to a good stage find a few specific playtesters to try it out and find out what annoys people and what they like through private messages. Sort out any last kinks in the map and then release it to idgames under the name alando1. Don't mention your other projects in the txt file and have it needing nothing but itself to run and see what people think.
Wait for the /newstuff review and take on board what people say about it. If it is needlessly slated in the review then people may well comment on the unfairness of the review (remember nothing can be to everyone's liking). Take on board what is said but DO NOT comment or winge about any criticisms.
Maybe with at least a good attempt under your belt and no back lash when people have an oppinion about your work you may see a decline in what you see as alando1 bashing.
If and when you need a playtester then feel free to contact me, I will give a fair and honest oppinion.

[40oz]

Graf Zahl said:

What's 'in demand' is not necessarily good. Case in point: Nearly every modern game as in overreliance on visuals but lack in gameplay.

I do agree. But I think that kinda demand is the kinda demand that gets people to buy the games, rather than like them. Making a good wad isn't really a contest for most downloads.

[myk]

It depends on experience and talent. Newer people may feel a bit lost and thus feel more impelled to be imitative of what other designers do, or might be inclined to please the masses because they are not certain what they themselves like. Those with a more defined style will be more selective, ignoring various opinions and critiques and being aware of what demands of theirs testers and critics must meet to be of any relevance.

[Syshigher]

Making internet a "serious business" will make you crazy. The best way is just ignore the flames and take only those constructive ones in consideration. Those guys want to make you angry and you're giving exactly what they want.

[alando1]

Ok, a few went a tad off topic but to reply to PhilibusMo for a moment. With the respect thing you mentioned, I'm really talking about is the "stop insulting" portion of a review. Remeber that other post I did a while ago relating to a horrible statement I found in a "review" for Alando Guns X? What I meant by respect, was I had a problem with people just plain out talk in the rudest and inappropriate way just for the hell of it. I'm not really asking for respect and I clearly understand I have to earn it but when it comes down to a review, I would like people to use some manners and guide me to how I can fix my wad; I'm looking for people who can leave a mature, professional sounding review so I can understand it and do what's necessary to fix my wad. I'm sorry if you got the wrong idea but I was really refering to the "insults out of nowhere" thing.

For your second post reply, I do have a question:
- How would I go about going under a different name?

Lastly, I thank you for volunteering to play-test. I would never expect someone to come forward and volunteer. I really appreciate it; my father used to be my tester but as many know already, he's deceased. Definitely, I thank you.

Note: If anyone else would also like to volunteer as play-tester, I'd appreciate it.

[Craigs]

a lot seem kind of harsh and the people who write the reviews seem to be expecting more from the wads.

Nobody really expects your maps to look as amazing as some of the more legendary maps such as the ones Espi made, but at the same time, most people expect a little more then a tiny box that was probably made in less then 5 minutes, especially when you have proven that you are capable of making some pretty damn fine maps, such as those from your Temple of the Lizard Men project.

[Maes]

Nomad said:

Is it an attainable life goal to have sex while playing doom?

Sure.

[myk]

Craigs said:
Nobody really expects your maps to look as amazing as some of the more legendary maps such as the ones Espi made, but at the same time, most people expect a little more then a tiny box that was probably made in less then 5 minutes, especially when you have proven that you are capable of making some pretty damn fine maps, such as those from your Temple of the Lizard Men project.

At the same time, overly anal and bitter critiques tend to kill the fun and play in editing, and even encourage people to use pseudonyms to release more experimental or "for the lulz or for the heck of it" maps so as to not "tarnish their reputations." And heavy criticism is one thing, but then it becomes bandwagon behavior where every noob and asshole chimes in to feel a bit better by helping someone else feel the worse. This in turn leads to mapping that holds itself to showy and stereotypical standards, as well as arguments over reviews rather than levels.

[PhilibusMo]

alando1 said:

Ok, a few went a tad off topic but to reply to PhilibusMo for a moment. With the respect thing you mentioned, I'm really talking about is the "stop insulting" portion of a review. Remeber that other post I did a while ago relating to a horrible statement I found in a "review" for Alando Guns X? What I meant by respect, was I had a problem with people just plain out talk in the rudest and inappropriate way just for the hell of it. I'm not really asking for respect and I clearly understand I have to earn it but when it comes down to a review, I would like people to use some manners and guide me to how I can fix my wad; I'm looking for people who can leave a mature, professional sounding review so I can understand it and do what's necessary to fix my wad. I'm sorry if you got the wrong idea but I was really refering to the "insults out of nowhere" thing.

For your second post reply, I do have a question:
- How would I go about going under a different name?

Lastly, I thank you for volunteering to play-test. I would never expect someone to come forward and volunteer. I really appreciate it; my father used to be my tester but as many know already, he's deceased. Definitely, I thank you.

Note: If anyone else would also like to volunteer as play-tester, I'd appreciate it.

To go under a different name, I would suggest the easiest way (if not the most by the book way) would be to open a new account. Then with your new account post the map onto the forums for people to playtest before you upload it to idgames as alando1. Once you are done with it you could probably ask the moderators to remove the new account. Remember to not make any references to alando1 with your new account. Have a completly different name, different avatar and make sure that any links you send do not have alando1 or any references to you anywhere. Also do not include any of your previous work in the wad. Use only standard, new or stuff from a common texture pack. Make sure you include the relevent textures from the pack in the wad. ONLY once it has been playtested to death do you release it to idgames.

[myk]

^ Heh, that's pretty silly. For it to have a chance, you should have suggested the idea by PM. Now, if he does it, people will start asking "hey, is this newb alando, or is it that other guy?" We'd probably notice relatively easily unless he were to come up with a rather different mapping style altogether. That is, he would have to fake a persona in general, as well as the name.

[PhilibusMo]

myk said:

^ Heh, that's pretty silly. For it to have a chance, you should have suggested the idea by PM. Now, if he does it, people will start asking "hey, is this newb alando, or is it that other guy?" We'd probably notice relatively easily unless he were to come up with a rather different mapping style altogether. That is, he would have to fake a persona in general, as well as the name.

true, that was foolish of me. Oh well, It won't be long before this thread is forgotten about.

[Use]

Truth is alando, you have no control over what anyone does on the internet, reviews or otherwise. Pissing and moaning about being treated rudely just makes you look foolish. Time to grow some thicker skin, and maybe refrain from sharing personal information to random strangers. Reacting like a little kid who's just had his feelings hurt just plays into the hands of your detractors, as people have already pointed out.
Making threads asking people to be polite just for the sake of being polite is laughably fruitless, not to mention very naive. There's always going to people on the net that genuinely want to help out, and people who don't give a shit and want to make you look stupid. That's life.

[myk]

Use3D said:
Reacting like a little kid who's just had his feelings hurt just plays into the hands of your detractors, as people have already pointed out.

Yep, but my point above is that just telling everybody they need to "shut up and grow a thicker skin" every time they raise an issue of this sort also contributes to detractors' aims.

While it will benefit alando1 and the community in general if he grows stronger and takes critiques, even nasty ones, with less concern, this thread isn't that bad because he had the dignity to set this discussion apart from WAD discussions and reviews (such as T/nC) and to explain he isn't here to take WAD design as "serious business."

Whether a critique is fair or just trolling can only be defined on a case by case basis and will even then be open to subjectivity, and thus we can expect this topic to pop up occasionally, usually by people motivated by events or conflicts.

If people are indeed abused and can't speak up about it in some way, they might leave, when perhaps they had a good deal of potential to offer the community.