barn-raising: open iwad project

[Jon]

well as long as the textures had absolutely no base on the doom ones.

And erm, if we are dealing soley with an iwad, we can't really change the names of the creatures or items etc. etc. or even level names, because they are defined outside of the iwad.

[boris]

They hardly have intellectual copyrights on brick and concrete walls, metal support beams, etc.

ROFL.

Well... they are Americans, you never know where they put copyrights on... ;)

[Lüt]

They hardly have intellectual copyrights on brick and concrete walls, metal support beams, etc.

ROFL.

Well... they are Americans, you never know where they put copyrights on... ;)

True... very true :)

[captmellow]

captmellow:

I think the point is to make something that existing .wads will work with. Sure the Darkening E2 textures look great, but they wouldn't really work in already made levels, would they?

ID can't really stop us from recreating the Doom textures from scratch. They hardly have intellectual copyrights on brick and concrete walls, metal support beams, fleshy surfaces, etc.

True, true. And making sure they line up properly in existing pwads is important. I think the textures are the only thing that is so contingent upon closely following the scale & pattern of the original. I think all the sprites could vary wildly from the originals, & would have to be, anyway.

Well, then, let's get cracking on these textures, eh? We should probably each call dibs on the ones we are working on, to prevent redundancy.

[Jon]

I dont think any work should start on the wad at all until its fully planned out and we all know whats going on, otherwise it'll be chaos.

Incidentally here's a log of tonight's chatting on the subject:
http://ice.alcopop.org/freedoom.log_1.txt

Thanks to aard for that

[Lüt]

Hey! Invite me next time! :)

That log is little too big for comments here but sounds pretty good overall.

[captmellow]

You wouldn't have to change names, because the names are not in the .wad but in the actual game codebase which has already been GPLed. However, the likenesses are something ID can protect.

Additional: I think the first step would be to come up with a license that we could agree to before any actual content is contributed, or the project would not get very far for internal bickering. It would also be a good idea to determine whether any license we came up with could be distributed with linux sources (e.g. if it was suitable for debian)

Hmmm...

Contributed original graphics, sounds effects, midis would be properly credited, & could be freely distributed only within the iwad. They could not be used to make additional wads.

Contributed graphics, sounds effects, midis which were taken from a royalty-free 3rd party entity (e.g. sfx disk, free textures site, etc.) would be properly credited, & freely distributed & used in any manner--it wouldn't do for us to arrogate any sort of copyright on such work.


Is this something along the lines of what you meant?

[captmellow]

Some really good points made in that chat log, like:

1. call it a fwad or something to make it not work w/ original doom.

(perhaps make a certain byte in the iwad (like the one that makes a pwad into an iwad) something that doom.exe/doom2.exe wouldn't support, but could easily be coded into current source ports & enabled w/ a command line parameter.)

Perhaps we could make sure the maps included exceeded the linedef limitations of the original Doom engine, therefore insuring incompatibility.

[Lüt]

Some really good points made in that chat log, like:

1. call it a fwad or something to make it not work w/ original doom.

Now that's kinda pushy... there's not much of a reason to do that, in fact I'd think you'd want to make it compatible with the original. (Says the guy who puts 5,000 sidedefs in view at a time...)

[captmellow]

Looking at the chat log, I'd have to say a few things:

Jon^D & Fraggle echo my own sentiments most closely.

I do not share Jayextee's concerns re: behavior of monsters.

From my cursory read, I didn't quite grasp what relapse was getting at re: the build.exe.

[Arioch]

Actually, we were kind of talking about, when we have full replacements for both Doom and Doom 2, to eliminate the double storage and just use one single resource WAD for all the patches, flats and sprites, with only the level data, music, intermission graphics, etc., in separate WADs.

This would break compatibility with original Doom executables, yet can be easily implemented in any source port that wished to support it.

[captmellow]

That sounds like a great idea. Hey BTW can I get a database hookup in the DW MySQL? I have some ideas that I would like to work on in PHP.

[Jon]

Lut: it wasn't a formal meeting as such, it just sort of happened. But I think a scheduled meeting would be kinda useful.

A combined doom and doom2 iwad thing would be fairly handy yea.. the overlap would reduce the workload

[Jayextee]

The main thing stopping all of this is the fact that we'd basically be replacing Doom.

To make this totally legal, there'd have to be some safeguard against people using it as a way 'around' registering/buying the Doom games. If someone can download say, BOOM, and this IWAD for free, then id would stop making revenue on their sales of the game.

This sounds preposterous, actually, but is exactly the thing that they don't want.

But the idea is admirable. Admirable but nigh on impossible.

I guess the 'commitee' will have to think of a way around this. I have a few ideas.

[captmellow]

:-P

Not the dreaded "c" word!

Haven't we learned from the OGRE debacle?

If this is going to turn into playing "house" rather than just making an open iwad, then go on w/out me. I would much rather go the Randy Heit "just do it" route. I am already feeling my neck tense up just thinking of miring this down in committees.

Does anyone remember Robocop 2, when Robocop was redesigned by committees & focus groups, & the end result was a robocop who was so hamstrung by appeasing every capricious focus group idea that he couldn't do what he was originally designed to do?

[Lüt]

Well I say definately ditch the "committee" part; you remember how well Prower's community project did a little over a year ago, and that didn't even have a plot, new graphics, sound, music or anything. Just a collection of levels. I had about 11 levels complete for it and it still didn't make it.

Jay: THAT'S THE POINT! id would still collect revenue on Doom because this add-on won't be Doom, it will just run on Doom's engine. For example, playing a regular PWAD with this IWAD will convert it to this new game format, enemies textures and all. If people wanna play Episode 1, Map29, fight against imps or revenants or pain elementals, they'd still have to buy Doom.

[captmellow]

Let's stick with what we know is fact (& thanks to Fraggle for asking the one person who should have been consulted):

You can't re-create anything that is clearly our work.

You can make a completely different game using the code with our blessing, but if it has imps, cyber demons, BFGs, etc, then you are treading on thin ice.

I hate to be the one to tell people this, but the reality of the business is that we are obligated to defend our trademarks and copyrights, so we can't just let things like that happen, even if they aren't perceived as a "threat".

You could make and release a new DOOM wad that replaced everything with similary looking original art, but it would still be bound by the restrictions we place on community derivative work, so it wouldn't be "free" in the sense that the GPL'd codebase is.

John Carmack

I understand that there are people with wildly varying objectives here. While my goals may not coincide directly with those of others here, my objectives could be a stepping-stone for others to use towards a more grandiose & cumbersome goal.

All I want to know is:

1) What restrictions does id place on community derivative work? I want copies of official statements/docs. If our (my) purposes can still be met w/in these parameters, then let's do it (i.e. new iwad that replaces everything w/ similar original art--this is what I originally wanted to do).

2) In what sense is the GPL'd codebase "free"? What advantages would there be to pursuing this course, rather than the former ("community derivative work")?

[cph]

1) What restrictions does id place on community derivative work? I want copies of official statements/docs.

I'm not sure if it's been ever been officially specified (well, back when editors first came out id circulated a few agreements, most of which were pretty questionable).

If our (my) purposes can still be met w/in these parameters, then let's do it (i.e. new iwad that replaces everything w/ similar original art--this is what I originally wanted to do).

I very much doubt it can be - if there's one thing those agreements are meant to do, it's to ensure that whatever derivatives get made, they only work with the paid-for Doom games.

2) In what sense is the GPL'd codebase "free"?

It's free in the sense that everyone gets an automatic free license not only to use it, but to make copies and derived works and publish them under the same license.

So you can make a new from-scratch no-similarities IWAD to work with the engine and that's fine. But if you make a data file derived from, working with or designed as a replacement for one of id's IWADs, you're infringing their copyright and have to abide by their restrictions.

At least that's my interpretation. IANAL.

[Jon]

how about you read the gpl? :P

Furthermore without some kind of plan or organisation it won't get anywhere either. We'll end up with all the texture artists making support3 replacements.

[Lüt]

We'll end up with all the texture artists making support3 replacements.

But what else could you possibly need for a level? ;)

[boris]

I'm not sure if this already has been said, but isn't the only real problem that custom Doom .wads are not allowed to run with a new IWAD?

[Lüt]

I'm pretty sure the source ports allow for it. If they don't, well, we'll make sure the next release does :)

[captmellow]

how about you read the gpl? :P

It's called delegation. I was assuming that someone more familiar w/ it (like a coder) could do a quick copy/paste of the relevant material to help facilitate this discussion.

Furthermore without some kind of plan or organisation it won't get anywhere either. We'll end up with all the texture artists making support3 replacements.

Yes, of course the logistics should be organised w/in reason, but I am loathe to get encumbered by some ponderous bureaucracy. I don't want to form an open iwad organisation/club--I just want to do what it takes to make an open iwad. I want to pool the resources. Keep track of who's working on what, make sure nothing's omitted, etc.

[skadoomer]

hmmmm, i'd be willing to do the sprite work, granted that enough people can agree on how the enimies should look. I don't like those fancy 3d modeling programs for making sprites, if your gonna make sprites with a 3d program, you might was well make the sprites 3d models. And since this is doom, might as well make sprites the old fasion way- with clay and a digital camera. Only problem is i've got my hands tied at the molment with a project of mine. What i can do is donate the raw immages (without being re-sized or dubbed with the doom patelle) so that others can touch up the workand re-fit everything to exact specifications. And if this project is gonna get off the ground, its gotta get out of the forms first.....

[captmellow]

hmmmm, i'd be willing to do the sprite work, granted that enough people can agree on how the enimies should look. I don't like those fancy 3d modeling programs for making sprites, if your gonna make sprites with a 3d program, you might was well make the sprites 3d models. And since this is doom, might as well make sprites the old fasion way- with clay and a digital camera. Only problem is i've got my hands tied at the molment with a project of mine. What i can do is donate the raw immages (without being re-sized or dubbed with the doom patelle) so that others can touch up the workand re-fit everything to exact specifications. And if this project is gonna get off the ground, its gotta get out of the forms first.....

Why don't you take a look at the Doom1 povdoom sprites Iikka Keranen has contributed, & look into doing something for the doom2 replacements (ie chaingunner, archie, etc.)?

http://www.student.oulu.fi/~ikeranen/povdoom/

[captmellow]

You wouldn't have to change names, because the names are not in the .wad but in the actual game codebase which has already been GPLed. However, the likenesses are something ID can protect.

Additional: I think the first step would be to come up with a license that we could agree to before any actual content is contributed, or the project would not get very far for internal bickering. It would also be a good idea to determine whether any license we came up with could be distributed with linux sources (e.g. if it was suitable for debian)

Jon, why don't you draft up something? Sounds like you have a head for this. At least a rough example.

[captmellow]

captmellow:

I think the point is to make something that existing .wads will work with. Sure the Darkening E2 textures look great, but they wouldn't really work in already made levels, would they?

ID can't really stop us from recreating the Doom textures from scratch. They hardly have intellectual copyrights on brick and concrete walls, metal support beams, fleshy surfaces, etc.

Nick, do you have anything you would be willing to contribute? I will make a list of what is being work on, to prevent redundancy. I want to make sure that the texture replacements will tile correctly, & it looks like you are on the same page re: this.

[Jon]

Yeah I'd be willing to work out a license. I'm going to try and enlist a little help *cough*aard*cough*cph*splutter* from people with more experience in this sort of thing too :)

[skadoomer]

hmmm, do we have an ftp that we can upload shit to? if not, maybe i'll talk to elybrayn 32 (or however you spell that caco loving guys name with the ftp) and see if we can get some space.

[Jon]

I've got a couple of places we can stick stuff.