Commander Keen discussion thread

[Hellbent]

I've been sick lately (hence my saying "Dah" a lot, as it somehow aptly counter balances my symptoms) and been playing some commander keen, too. When was the last time you climbed the tower on the secret level of keen 1? I love pogoing up that tower, especially since the reward is so handsome (the handsomest one in the game, aside from finishing the secret level). Even though I've prolly pogo'd up that tower a thousand times, I'm still far from mastering it. How many times have I reached the second highest level only to fall all the way down to the bottom again? many I tell you. I'll post a screenshot soon (and maybe a video).

The tower is to the left of Keen. I've already been up and grabbed the teddy bears. I forgot to take a screenshot of it, tho, so I climbed up the side of the tower.

[Megalyth]

I used to have that down pretty well. I made it up several times without bumping my head. Heh, I still love Commander Keen. </sap>

Other moments of note:

- Coming into possession of episodes 2 and 3.
- Discovering that episodes 4, 5, and 6 had music once I got a PC with a sound card.
- Finding the secret level of Keen4. I had the game for several years and played it through many times before I found it. It was pretty obvious too, so obvious in fact that once the idea entered my head, I just KNEW it would work.

[Hellbent]

Megalyth said:

I used to have that down pretty well. I made it up several times without bumping my head. Heh, I still love Commander Keen. </sap>

Other moments of note:

- Coming into possession of episodes 2 and 3.
- Discovering that episodes 4, 5, and 6 had music once I got a PC with a sound card.
- Finding the secret level of Keen4. I had the game for several years and played it through many times before I found it. It was pretty obvious too, so obvious in fact that once the idea entered my head, I just KNEW it would work.

It wasn't obvious to me at all. When my brother suggested I try it, I was like.. I don't think the programmers would do that.... Oh, I was wrong.

I never played the other episodes (until relatively recently) only 1 and 4 as a kid. I liked keen, but for some reason didn't feel like buying it i guess. I liked episode 2, but didn't like episode 3. The hamburgers and chocolate bars had their point value swapped. Burgers were supposed to give you 500 but gave you 100, and chocolate bars were supposed to give you 100 but gave you 500 (at least the version I downloaded). So I never played it much.. also--it was too hard!! The worldmap was confusing. The levels were too hard. I didn't really like the graphics of episode 5. For some reason I only played one or two levels of episode 6.

I loved the secrets in episode 4. I don't think I've ever pogo'd up the tower without hitting my head. Actually, I've probably done it a few times. I often will do about 4 or 5 steps before I mess up and then have a streak of misses and finally end up at the bottom again. I don't often get deterred tho. I just got an idea for a similar tower. Maybe I'll make it. Making keen 1 levels is pretty easy. If I make it, you must play it! BTW, did you ever get all the balloons on that early keen 1 level where there is a ton of balloons in the upper left corner?

[Gez]

Hellbent said:

I liked episode 2, but didn't like episode 3. The hamburgers and chocolate bars had their point value swapped. Burgers were supposed to give you 500 but gave you 100, and chocolate bars were supposed to give you 100 but gave you 500 (at least the version I downloaded). So I never played it much..

Never payed much attention to how much score items were worth. I just nabbed as many as possible because they're here.

[Hellbent]

Gez said:

Never payed much attention to how much score items were worth. I just nabbed as many as possible because they're here.

I hate when game balance is bad. Ruins a game.

[Hellbent]

Heh, for Doom 2's 10th anniversary, a guy named Geoff Sims released a great buggy on XP commander keen editor.

Author: Geoff Sims Date: October 10th, 2004

http://www.dosclassics.com/download/188

[Gez]

Hellbent said:

I hate when game balance is bad. Ruins a game.

How does score affects balance? Way I see it, it's just a holdover from arcade machine and a source of bragging rights. Did it ruin Doom's balance that they removed score items? Balance of a platformer resides in the geometry of the level, amount and placement of powerups and enemies, available weapons and ammo, if any, etc.

[Hellbent]

but i always liked the scoring aspect of keen. so for me it ruined that aspect of gameplay balance. but i hear what you're sayng

[Creaphis]

You can sort of say that scoring is involved with game balance when gathering score items rewards you in another way. (You get an extra life every 20000 points in the first Keen games.)

Hellbent said:

BTW, did you ever get all the balloons on that early keen 1 level where there is a ton of balloons in the upper left corner?

I'm pretty sure it's impossible. And that they're lollipops.

[Hellbent]

Creaphis said:

You can sort of say that scoring is involved with game balance when gathering score items rewards you in another way. (You get an extra life every 20000 points in the first Keen games.)



I'm pretty sure it's impossible. And that they're lollipops.

Yes, exactly.

they always were, and always will be balloons. I think you're right that it's impossible. Silly id.

[Creaphis]

Hellbent said:

they always were, and always will be balloons.

[citation needed]

[Hellbent]

Creaphis said:

[citation needed]

And I suppose next you're going to tell me extra lives are life water flasks, not milk jugs?

[Stupid Bunny]

Hellbent said:

Heh, for Doom 2's 10th anniversary, a guy named Geoff Sims released a great buggy on XP commander keen editor.

Author: Geoff Sims Date: October 10th, 2004

http://www.dosclassics.com/download/188

Fortunately, there's a much better XP editor for the Invasion of the Vorticons episodes (The Mindbelt Editor). I also hear there's a newer decent editor for Keens 4-6, though I forget what it's called and I've never used it.

[Sharessa]

Commander Keen is part of the Id Megapack selling on Steam for less than $25 right now. :D Just bought and installed it.

[Hellbent]

Danarchy said:

Commander Keen is part of the Id Megapack selling on Steam for less than $25 right now. :D Just bought and installed it.

Nice! If you get stuck on a secret or getting an item on episode 1, 2 or 4, post a pic, I might be able to help as I know episodes 1 and 4 inside out and 2 fairly well.

[bimlanders]

Balance is kind of pointless to discuss when talking about Keen 4, 5, and 6 because you can save your game ANYWHERE! This makes extra lifes kind of irrelevant. I actually prefer this method, as the console games that constantly made you start from the beginnings of levels was what taught me how to swear back when I was a little kid. Doom, for example, can still be very challenging (Doom 2, TNT, Plutonia) even though you can constantly save because you still have to get past everything.

Having a PC in the early 90's and discovering shareware for the first time is one of my favorite memories of childhood, game-wise. It's right up there with when we first got a SNES, and before that, an Amiga 500, and of course when we got the original NES as well. Keen 4 was a big one for me, and still is.

[myk]

bimlanders said:
Balance is kind of pointless to discuss when talking about Keen 4, 5, and 6 because you can save your game ANYWHERE! This makes extra lifes kind of irrelevant.

I agree save-gaming disrupts balance, and that's something one can say to anyone who is progressing through while using saves as an in-game feature instead as a system for taking breaks. However, the feature doesn't stop people from playing the game by its intrinsic rules to challenge themselves or for an honest competition between friends or associates. Obviously, it is also useful for practicing particularly hard sections without having to play through a chunk of the game just to get there. Thus, game balance matters, especially if whoever is talking about it is playing in a way that makes it relevant. If it didn't matter at all, then why should it matter to the designers? If the designers didn't care for such a basic game principle, why play any such game they designed?

Doom, for example, can still be very challenging (Doom 2, TNT, Plutonia) even though you can constantly save because you still have to get past everything.

One acquires the habit of trying games on their hardest difficulties, maybe out of curiosity, or maybe for teenage bragging rights. Naturally, if things get rough, we resort to whatever we can to get through, and thus become habituated to hitting F2 (or the equivalent) throughout most of the game. That habit becomes "part of the game" and various players end up taking it for granted. It might be challenging in some sense, but certainly not in the way it is when playing through the game without saves. Having seen this, I really don't see any reason to push the difficulty setting past what I can manage naturally or to disrupt the flow of game balance by inserting arbitrary saves for the purpose of progressing.

One thing that has strengthened DOOM in the game balance appreciation department is demo recording. In demos you can't save, so you need to play through "as intended." (Actually, now some source ports allow saving in demos, but thanks to tradition that's considered in a separate category of "tool assisted" play.) Another is public multiplayer, of course. Its use is a bit limited for cooperative play because strangers don't tend too be the most cooperative of people, but it does encourage play without saves as a habit. Commander Keen has neither, although sharing videos of play-throughs can play the role of demos.

[Jodwin]

bimlanders said:

Balance is kind of pointless to discuss when talking about Keen 4, 5, and 6 because you can save your game ANYWHERE!

True...but on the other hand, the level design in (at least) Keen 4 & 5 is often such that playing the levels without in-level saves can get much more frustrating than in other platformers. What I'm talking about is the lack of health, ton of hazards, enemies that move all the time (so predicting safe spots when falling down tall pits gets impossible) and, also, lack of continues. If you'd compare it to, lets say, NES Megamans, those were much more friendly for lack of saves thanks to actual health, more predictable enemies and hazards that often give you enough time to plan your course of actions.

Perhaps having continues (which reset your current scores?) could have replaced in-game saves, but at least the game's much more tolerable with saves than without.

[myk]

Jodwin said:
True...but on the other hand, the level design in (at least) Keen 4 & 5 is often such that playing the levels without in-level saves can get much more frustrating than in other platformers.

That might explain why there aren't complete runs on the SDA yet. People will either have to resort to a TAS run or use saves to heavily practice all the frustrating parts first.

I don't recall playing 4 & 5 in particular, but that does seem to show that the save game feature influenced testing... too much.

[Jodwin]

myk said:

That might explain why there aren't complete runs on the SDA yet. People will either have to resort to a TAS run or use saves to heavily practice all the frustrating parts first.

I don't recall playing 4 & 5 in particular, but that does seem to show that the save game feature influenced testing... too much.

Heh, one particularly bad "feature" in Keen 4 regarding speedrunning are the flies: You can memorize where they appear, but their actually height, direction and speed seem to be completely random as soon as they show up in the screen. Add in that they're relatively fast, hard to kill and can kill you in one hit, they can very easily ruin speedruns all by themselves.

[Hellbent]

Jodwin said:

Heh, one particularly bad "feature" in Keen 4 regarding speedrunning are the flies: You can memorize where they appear, but their actually height, direction and speed seem to be completely random as soon as they show up in the screen. Add in that they're relatively fast, hard to kill and can kill you in one hit, they can very easily ruin speedruns all by themselves.

yeah, they're the least predictable enemy in the game. Always satisfying to stomp on them with the pogo tho.