Hell's Last Stand [continuing the HR legacy](Update!)

[darkreaver]

*Sigh*

Although I get what most people here are saying, I`m voting for HR3, BUT on the other side, I wouldn`t mind if they went for a original name for the project.

One thing comes to mind though; what about making i.e. "The Path III" when not naming the WAD HR3? Would that be OK? Would it even be ok to make "The Path III" either way? I guess thats what the HR2 team did (The Path II), but I`m not 100% sure, and Im too lazy to look it up right now.

also I`m not sure this made any sense at all :P

edit: I wrote this because one of the screens in the opening post was clearly a "The Path III" if I remember correctly, but now I cant access the screenies...need a password for some reason

[40oz]

Dont fuck this up.

Next to Scythe 2, Hell Revealed is my favorite megawad.

Hell Revealed 2 was good up until MAP10 and quality depreciated by far with the archvile spam and awful number of BFGs and Cell packs.

You better redeem the Hell Revealed name with this wad.

[Pottus]

darkreaver said:

*Sigh*

Although I get what most people here are saying, I`m voting for HR3, BUT on the other side, I wouldn`t mind if they went for a original name for the project.

One thing comes to mind though; what about making i.e. "The Path III" when not naming the WAD HR3? Would that be OK? Would it even be ok to make "The Path III" either way? I guess thats what the HR2 team did (The Path II), but I`m not 100% sure, and Im too lazy to look it up right now.

also I`m not sure this made any sense at all :P

edit: I wrote this because one of the screens in the opening post was clearly a "The Path III" if I remember correctly, but now I cant access the screenies...need a password for some reason

Yes that is The Path III in that screen shot unlike the other Path's this one has 3 gates and 3 keys activate one gate and get two keys in any combination to exit. If you happen to go through the trouble of doing all 3 gates and all 3 keys then the secret exit can be opened that makes 10 different ways you could beat the level.

[printz]

To be frank, I don't know what do HR and its spin-off have in common. I also didn't get to finish the second one. It got rather repetitive and didn't seem coherent enough to be worth playing in sequence.

Here are the differences:

1. HR was made by 2 guys, HR2 by a large team.
   
2. HR is themed around cracked STONE and BIGBRIK, while HR2 uses regular BRICK, STUCCO and all those drab Doom 2 building textures.
   
3. HR has three beautiful and varied skies. HR2 uses variations of basically the same effect, with formulaic Doom 2 colors: orange (Earthly early Doom), brown (slightly urban), red (hell). HOW OFTEN DID I SEE THAT
   
4. HR has upbeat and catchy music taken from Rise of the Triad, and it seems to compensate the carnage quite humorously. HR2 uses original songs. Too bad they're MIDIs of the death metal genre, being raped in quality by the sound driver. Some are catchy (like that MAP23), others not. Some aren't particularly melodic, and just grind along with the fights.
   
5. HR seems to have more easy levels among hard ones, than HR2.
   

HR just has more personality, thanks to music choice and skies. Despite having no storyline, it still appears to bear some continuity. Several levels do take advantage of the sky texture. I like how MAP13 is the first where you see the pink sky, is called "Last look at Eden", and is suddenly hard.

Still, I love Dis 8000, if only because it homages Doom 1. Also those levels from HR2 which have outstanding architecture (like that chapel thing), not just a few hallways, are great, and I need to play them more with chocolate-doom, to remember them better.

EDIT: Actually I replayed that level, Dis 8000, but I only liked it if it were a Doom episode 3 finale. As itself, it's kinda meh, and the music sucks as soon as the "guitar" starts. Death metal doesn't work on MIDI period.

They can't be compared.

[WH-Wilou84]

printz said:

HR has three beautiful and varied skies. HR2 uses variations of basically the same effect, with formulaic Doom 2 colors: orange (Earthly early Doom), brown (slightly urban), red (hell). HOW OFTEN DID I SEE THAT

For a wad named Hell Revealed, a hellish sky would probably suit better than this black sky with stars for the third episode. At least Alien Vendetta and Hell Revealed II got it right.

HR2's music is great I think, but then it's a matter of taste I suppose. Maybe they shouldn't have tried to be original and stick to RotT music ( which is cool too ).

[Snakes]

darkreaver said:

*Sigh*


One thing comes to mind though; what about making i.e. "The Path III" when not naming the WAD HR3? Would that be OK? Would it even be ok to make "The Path III" either way? I guess thats what the HR2 team did (The Path II), but I`m not 100% sure, and Im too lazy to look it up right now.

Didn't Scythe 2 use Afterlife 2? When I started the level, that really irked me because I fucking LOVE Afterlife and it looked nothing like the original... then I played the level and holy shit! (Granted, it was in another big-name WAD.)

Also, look at all of the Inmost Dens there have been since Doom 2 :P

Just like anything else involving a big name: so long as they do it well, I don't mind at all. But doing HR well isn't like doing just any old WAD: it has to be damn good. Hard as hell, fun as can be, and there have to be a couple of unique levels so far as I'm concerned.

I say keep making it, but try and try to contact Yonatan, and if you can't... drop the name. Because,with all due respect to the HR2 team and Chroz, Yonatan Donner IS Hell Revealed.

[chroz]

Just thought I'd add here that Donner had no probs with HR2

[printz]

[WH]-Wilou84 said:

For a wad named Hell Revealed, a hellish sky would probably suit better than this black sky with stars for the third episode.

Hell doesn't exist in real life (maybe it exists in real death) so it's not necessarily red.

[darkreaver]

Hell is pink.

DAMN YOU PINK!

*sinks into the depths of insanity*

[Graf Zahl]

Any project that sparks more discussion about its name than its content sure is facing some serious problems...

[kristus]

True, but all publicity is good publicity.

@Chroz: Hi buddy. Glad to see you back in action. :)

[myk]

Gez said:
I didn't say you were saying that, I said you were saying that HR's original author was saying that. And obviously, that was caricatural.

He could think anything. Even if he were hit by holy light and came along with bizarre or unexpected ideas about this HR3 initiative or what we can henceforth do with his work, he'd be in his right. The whole point is that it's up to him when it comes to his work. Not asking him, or any other author that didn't grant permission in a general way, pretty much ignores or sidelines that attribution. The wrong thing would be to assume he would say what we think he would, mainly because there's a good chance and it's convenient to us. Confidence in another's goodwill and generosity should not override gestures of respect and acknowledgment.

In other words, painting a hypothetical Donner as an asshole or hater for refusing to grant permission for whatever reason shows you're unwilling to accept he has that right unless it suits you.

Looking for a more predictable denial than suddenly becoming a jerk or madman, how do we know he hasn't, for instance, acquired ideas that value creative differences and, according to these, would rather now deny giving permission for derivatives of his work to encourage that people produce more unique things?

chroz said:
Just thought I'd add here that Donner had no probs with HR2

Right, we linked to the page where he says that, above. This should give you confidence that he'll also be fine with HR3, but, potential aside, one specific yes does not imply another.

[Vorpal]

Most of the Doom community (including me) seems to have a disregard for copyright issues, since it is all for hobby and no profit. We could probably rebuild the various doom/heretic/hexen iwads piecemeal simply by browsing /idgames wads...

That said, using someone else's title is a bit lame, if we can't respect commercial media's rights, we should at least respect our fellow doomer's ;-P

What's to say Donner won't come back with the intention of making a HR3? I didn't touch Doom for 9 years but I'm back and releasing something soon...

[printz]

darkreaver said:

Hell is pink.

DAMN YOU PINK!

*sinks into the depths of insanity*

Actually now to me it looks like a nebula, like you're In Space in those strange levels.

When I first saw chroz's post here I first was under the impression he said HR3 (like he just contacted Donner), but on further inspection... no.

[Set Abominae]

Vorpal said:

That said, using someone else's title is a bit lame, if we can't respect commercial media's rights, we should at least respect our fellow doomer's ;-P

What's to say Donner won't come back with the intention of making a HR3? I didn't touch Doom for 9 years but I'm back and releasing something soon...

myk said:Looking for a more predictable denial than suddenly becoming a jerk or madman, how do we know he hasn't, for instance, acquired ideas that value creative differences and, according to these, would rather now deny giving permission for derivatives of his work to encourage that people produce more unique things?

Right, we linked to the page where he says that, above. This should give you confidence that he'll also be fine with HR3, but, potential aside, one specific yes does not imply another. [/B]

Can you people read? We are working on asking him! Sometimes I wonder if I am shouting on deaf ears in this community.

THE HORSE IS DEAD

I'm seriously getting pissed about this. You don't need to continually tell us "OMG IF YOU DONT HAVE PERMISSION FROM DONNER YOU CANT USE THE NAME" Okay, maybe you haven't figured it out yet but the guy seems to be out of contact at the moment. As Pottus, Zetta and I have said at least three times already, WE HAVE SENT E-MAILS. If you're here to complain about the name because we haven't received permission from Donner to use the HR name YET, go get your panties in a bunch somewhere else. If you're here to possibly lend a helpful suggestion and better the project, or better yet attempt to sign up to help, then please, continue posting.

[Vorpal]

Hope you get in contact with him, that'll be great to know he is still around (last I heard he was conscripting in the Israeli military, yikes).

In the meantime, the project still seems to be shanking his title...

In the end though, despite the decisions made, the world continues to spin ;-P

[Super Jamie]

Pottus said:

Every project starts out as a no-name project even Deus Vult at one time no one knew what it was.

Yet Huy built his success off his good solid mapping skills instead of releasing "Hell Revealed Jr" or some other derivatively-named product.

[Gez]

Super Jamie said:

Yet Huy built his success off his good solid mapping skills instead of releasing "Hell Revealed Jr" or some other derivatively-named product.

Contrarily to Cyb who had the cheek of naming a project of his "Doom Jr". Did he get Id Software's permission?

[Ralphis]

Gez said:

Contrarily to Cyb who had the cheek of naming a project of his "Doom Jr". Did he get Id Software's permission?

Let's bee for real dawg

[myk]

Set Abominae said:
Can you people read?

Yeah, although I don't recall anyone in the team say what you would do if Donner were to say no, never replies or is never found. You may mean to imply you'd drop the name in that case, which would leave little or nothing to argue over in respect to the project's name.

If you're here to complain about the name because we haven't received permission from Donner to use the HR name YET, go get your panties in a bunch somewhere else. If you're here to possibly lend a helpful suggestion and better the project, or better yet attempt to sign up to help, then please, continue posting.

Keep in mind you're the visitors here, not the Doomworld mods and regulars. You're welcome to use this place to develop and promote your project, but critiques will come independently and aren't necessarily subject to your approval. Besides, keep in mind much of the arguing is on a larger scale, sometimes theoretical and between the "Doomworld natives" and not on all accounts aimed at you. The case in question, your mod, brought up some debatable points that come up in various threads here and there. To me as a mod, these discussions are important because they shape our habits and attitudes about what we do with each other's work each time we make development threads here, little by little, and not just in respect to one particular project or situation.

[Set Abominae]

I'll put it this way then Myk. If A) We get a reply from Donner saying he does not want us to use the Hell Revealed name or B) He does not reply by the time the project is finished and ready for release, we will drop the name. Until one of those two things happens, this is Hell Revealed 3. I have a strong feeling, though, that Donner doesn't give a shit about the Doom community [or for that matter, HR] anymore. I feel he passed the torch on to Chroz when he allowed him to make Hell Revealed 2. However, I will keep an open mind about this and if he wishes us to not use the name, I will respect his wishes. As we said, we aren't using this name to get our project popular - we are attempting to continue the legacy.

I apologize for getting upset.

[Gez]

Just call it "Hellish Revelations Trinity", or HR3 for short, and everybody's happy. (Why trinity? Well, as a vanilla project, there'll be three different "episode" areas. Each one is a hellish revelation. OMG the name is all deep and shit it makes so much sense!!!oneeleven!)

[esselfortium]

Call it "HAEL YAE "

[Zetta]

I don't see what being new to doomworld has to do with being new to DOOM. The three of us are all very experienced players and mappers, nothing noobish or inexperienced about us. Btw i'll get that picture link fixed for you guys in a minute.

[Super Mighty G]

I agree that using the Hell Revealed name seems like a thinly veiled way to attract people. As if to say "IT'S HELL REVEALED ONLY IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION TO THE FIRST ONE"

Call it something similar and say it's a Hell Revealed tribute. Like Tormentor667 and Austerity.














lol tormentor

[Zetta]

U.O.D. said:

I agree that using the Hell Revealed name seems like a thinly veiled way to attract people. As if to say "IT'S HELL REVEALED ONLY IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION TO THE FIRST ONE"

Call it something similar and say it's a Hell Revealed tribute. Like Tormentor667 and Austerity.














lol tormentor

except it does.

[esselfortium]

No, it has a connection to the second one, which was made by totally different people than the first one.

[Dco16]

I completely understand the use of the Hell Revealed title. Sometimes you need to pull a Troll 2, even if you've got goblins.

No, that's retarded.

How about Hell Revealed 3: The Next Re-Revealing

[Gez]

So it's Hell Revealed 2 2: The Mystery of Too Many Monsters.

[Super Mighty G]

Gez said:

So it's Hell Revealed 2 2: The Mystery of Two Many Monsters.

Oh, each level can only have 2 monster types. That'd be interesting!

I'm sorry for the sarcasm, but it's hard for me to take this seriously.