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Zetta

Hell's Last Stand [continuing the HR legacy](Update!)

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esselfortium said:

I've got to say that most of those pictures don't really impress me at all. :\

Seconded, but would any screenshot taken from the original HR impress you now, in 2010 ?

Pottus : Good thing you changed the name, and as Super Jamie said, if your wad is good enough it will get the recognition it deserves !

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I'm sure it will be a well liked Wad for me it always was "The Path" level's that were true inspiration if it seemed anything the first two Hell Revealed's had in common it was these levels which really seems to cement the rest of the wad.

So I came up with this.

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wow, this is stirring even more problems than Plutonia 2 did...

Let's just see what they can deliver ... we may be very well surprised.

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wow, this is stirring even more problems than Plutonia 2 did...

Then that's a good omen.

esselfortium said:

I've got to say that most of those pictures don't really impress me at all. :\

By detail, or layout?

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I was gonna make a joke post about hellconcealed.wad that was hidden inside a password protected zip where nobody would ever know the password, but I was too retarded to figure out how to put a password on a zip.

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Thank-you for changing the thread name whomever that may have been much appreciation to you sir.

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I kind of feel bad now. I wasn't trying to push you over the edge, but to try and clarify with different words what people were saying. If you guys are truly committed to this I personally have no problem.

Honestly, though, I think this may help in that if this is truly great people will revere it as it is instead of nitpicking and comparing it to HR. And personally, I really do like the name Hell's Last Stand: Continuing the Hell Revealed Legacy

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I put that between brackets, since it explains a key part of the project's character, not as a subtitle or anything.

You're welcome, Pottus!

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DuckReconMajor said:

I kind of feel bad now. I wasn't trying to push you over the edge, but to try and clarify with different words what people were saying. If you guys are truly committed to this I personally have no problem.

Honestly, though, I think this may help in that if this is truly great people will revere it as it is instead of nitpicking and comparing it to HR. And personally, I really do like the name Hell's Last Stand: Continuing the Hell Revealed Legacy


It's not the name that's important to us anyways I think in time people will realize what truly is in our hearts.

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Yeah, we just decided to switch back to the original name. Hell's Last Stand has a nice ring to it, anyway.

We'll keep you guys updated on progress. We'll also let you know whether or not we hear from Yonatan o_O

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I liked HR for its innovative gameplay and "overwhelming odds" styled difficulty. HR2 on the other hand, with the exception of a few levels, overpowered the difficulty which led from one rapefest into another.

I liken HR's difficulty to tabasco: it makes stuff taste better, but don't pour the whole bottle in (like the sequel)!

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That doesn't mean that I will make my maps easy at all. What i meant was that there are parts, beginning of maps for example where there is a cyber and hordes of monsters around you with little cover. In other words spawn rape. I try to avoid that, another thing can be tight areas which make multiplayer difficult. Though of course difficult traps and scenarios are appropriate.

Being able to strategically place monsters without throwing hundreds at a time is also a useful skill. People seem to like that more.

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Doom Marine said:

I liked HR for its innovative gameplay and "overwhelming odds" styled difficulty. HR2 on the other hand, with the exception of a few levels, overpowered the difficulty which led from one rapefest into another.

I liken HR's difficulty to tabasco: it makes stuff taste better, but don't pour the whole bottle in (like the sequel)!


I have to agree with you 100 percent rape fest does not over-ride a carefully planned and well choreographed level. Realistically to achieve that requires more time play testing and tweaking a levels dynamics then it would to actually build the level.

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Zetta said:

What i meant was that there are parts, beginning of maps for example where there is a cyber and hordes of monsters around you with little cover. In other words spawn rape. I try to avoid that

You mean, for example, the 24th map of Hell Revealed or map 26 in Alien Vendetta I suppose ?
This was the kind of map that was missing in HR2, in which you often have to explore a bit before finding the most threatening situations.
Of course maps like "The Siege II", "The End is Nigh" or "Hell's Cauldron" had you overwhelmed right from the start, and it was damn good, but it's not the same thing.

If you really think this is spawn rape, or that Plutonia 2 is too hard, maybe it's a good thing this project is not called Hell Revealed III after all...

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[WH]-Wilou84 said:

You mean, for example, the 24th map of Hell Revealed or map 26 in Alien Vendetta I suppose ?
This was the kind of map that was missing in HR2, in which you often have to explore a bit before finding the most threatening situations.
Of course maps like "The Siege II", "The End is Nigh" or "Hell's Cauldron" had you overwhelmed right from the start, and it was damn good, but it's not the same thing.

If you really think this is spawn rape, or that Plutonia 2 is too hard, maybe it's a good thing this project is not called Hell Revealed III after all...


I can't speak for Zetta, but I know that some [if not most] of my maps will have beginnings like Hell's Cauldron or The Siege II. But then again, I do have a map where there are some very well laid traps about. Once you think you're safe, the shit hits the fan.

I didnt think Plutonia 2 was too hard, however the wad hardly reminded me of the original. Besides the textures, it felt like a whole different adventure to me.

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zetta finds pl2 too hard but wanted to work on HR3... it's a bit contradictory.


I don't find it necessarily contradictory. I for one love HR and find most PL2 maps too hard for my enjoyment ; hard in the sense that many PL2 maps are cramped and/or tight on ammo, hence require good dodging and aiming skills to get through. I also found the detail/texture choice cluttery, too detailed in the sense that I often had trouble seeing what was going on. The PL textures look great and worked fine in Plutonia with its relatively simple architecture, but with more complex structures in PL2 it left me confused most of the time.

Compare with HR which, with its minimal detail had nothing to block your way or your view, often had large open spaces and more than enough ammo. I'd say these two megawads play very differently and require different sorts of skills - although some doomers might excel at both and not notice the difference, for someone like me who's terrible at PL2 styled gameplay the disparity is obvious.

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Zetta said:

What i meant was that there are parts, beginning of maps for example where there is a cyber and hordes of monsters around you with little cover. In other words spawn rape.

I wouldn't mind hearing what you'd have to say about the last 10 maps of Kama Sutra :P

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Phml said:

I don't find it necessarily contradictory. I for one love HR and find most PL2 maps too hard for my enjoyment ; hard in the sense that many PL2 maps are cramped and/or tight on ammo, hence require good dodging and aiming skills to get through. I also found the detail/texture choice cluttery, too detailed in the sense that I often had trouble seeing what was going on. The PL textures look great and worked fine in Plutonia with its relatively simple architecture, but with more complex structures in PL2 it left me confused most of the time.

Compare with HR which, with its minimal detail had nothing to block your way or your view, often had large open spaces and more than enough ammo. I'd say these two megawads play very differently and require different sorts of skills - although some doomers might excel at both and not notice the difference, for someone like me who's terrible at PL2 styled gameplay the disparity is obvious.


Nobody in the team complained about that, though I understand your point.

Most of the team was made of veteran doomers, mappers and speedrunners. That could explain why some things may give more troubles to mundane players than we expected.

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esselfortium said:

I've got to say that most of those pictures don't really impress me at all. :\


Not every WAD can live up to SPACEDM5. You need to relax your ego, man.

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Mr. Freeze said:

Not every WAD can live up to SPACEDM5. You need to relax your ego, man.


It's all good with me whatever he thinks/says let that ego loose.

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Mr. Freeze said:

Not every WAD can live up to SPACEDM5. You need to relax your ego, man.

Er, what? Was SPACEDM5 really so bad that I'm not allowed to post my opinions anymore?

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esselfortium said:

Er, what? Was SPACEDM5 really so bad that I'm not allowed to post my opinions anymore?


SPACEDM5 is the best DM wad ever released in the history of DooM and it's future. You need to lower your standards.

I'm very concerned for you, essel. This attitude of yours isn't jiving with me.

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Mr. Freeze said:

SPACEDM5 is the best DM wad ever released in the history of DooM and it's future. You need to lower your standards.

I'm very concerned for you, essel. This attitude of yours isn't jiving with me.


Doom is a lot like sex it's not good to set your standards too high otherwise your going to be disappointed but if they are high it's awfully hard to accept anything lower than what your used to.

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Pottus said:

Doom is a lot like sex it's not good to set your standards too high otherwise your going to be disappointed but if they are high it's awfully hard to accept anything lower than what your used to.

There is no such thing as quality standards that are "too high", at least not in this context. If something isn't good enough, it just ain't good enough. And that goes for my own work as well as anyone else's.

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esselfortium said:

There is no such thing as quality standards that are "too high", at least not in this context. If something isn't good enough, it just ain't good enough. And that goes for my own work as well as anyone else's.


Well you are forgetting with that statement the element of peer opinion that something good to you might not be good to someone else. All your work with Doom is great I love it! As for your Terrible Flood album that's not really my taste of music so it's safe to say that just isn't good enough. No doubt though you put in a strong quality concerted effort but that doesn't change the fact that it's going to be garbage to others.

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Pottus said:

Well you are forgetting with that statement the element of peer opinion that something good to you might not be good to someone else. All your work with Doom is great I love it! As for your Terrible Flood album that's not really my taste of music so it's safe to say that just isn't good enough. No doubt though you put in a strong quality concerted effort but that doesn't change the fact that it's going to be garbage to others.

This post isn't very coherent, but it seems as though you're trying to equate "I don't like this style of music in general, even though it's a 'strong quality concerted effort'" with "some of these maps look rather awkwardly thrown-together". What I'm saying doesn't really have much to do with the style of the maps, some of them just really look rather noobish and random in the structural/texturing departments.

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