Hell's Last Stand [continuing the HR legacy](Update!)

[zap610]

Use3D said:

I find it funny that mappers are being chosen so selectively but the one doing the choosing has not released any maps publicly.

I kinda feel like a dick for saying this, but I've seen Zetta's work and it isn't that great. But most of us released bad things in the past, maybe this will be an improvement.

[Zetta]

It's ok zap, I see where you are coming from and i get it. Although i am making an effort to make these maps better by not rushing them and going for better gameplay. I'm thinking of getting out a demo with parts of a few maps to get out there- At some point in the near future.

[printz]

kristus said:

Your point is not in the same ball park.

What exactly am I missing? Not even the AV leader had declared any maps. I wasn't active at that time though.

[kristus]

You really don't see the difference between a bunch of guys making a Megawad together and what is going on in this thread?

[TimeOfDeath]

I don't care about a mapper's design skills if they are a good player. Wasn't that kinda the point of HR? (a good player making maps for recording demos)

[Snakes]

It's a logical fallacy, is the problem. Just because one team that didn't have any publicly released stuff made a great WAD does not mean that another team in a similar situation will do the same.I'm not saying you won't, I'm just saying your argument is broken.

Still, I love HR... though HR2 wasn't really for me. Regardless, good luck with the WAD.

[printz]

Snakes said:

Just because one team that didn't have any publicly released stuff made a great WAD does not mean that another team in a similar situation will do the same.

What I said is that it doesn't mean it's automatically bad. Typical post of mine, nothing different.

[WH-Wilou84]

printz said:

What exactly am I missing? Not even the AV leader had declared any maps. I wasn't active at that time though.

AV leader ( A. Johnsen ) is/was a fantastic player and demo-recorder. He knew his stuff. Even if he didn't release a map beforehand, he was supposed to know what is good and what is not.

Yonatan Donner was also a great player/speedrunner when Haggay Niv and him made Hell Revealed.

The difference here is that Zetta is mostly unknown. And he also mentioned Skulltag, which, let's be honest, doesn't really evoke good mapping in general ( or at least old-school mapping which should be the point of a HR sequel ) for many people here.

But before flaming Zetta and team, just let them try, who knows ? :)
The fact that they've waited to actually have something to show before starting this thread, and the fact that they've contacted Jonas Feragen and ( maybe ) Yonatan Donner/Haggay Niv show that they're not complete newbies who want to use a big name.
Well, we'll see.

---

For those who'd be interested in mapping for this, maybe those questions are to be answered :
- Can mappers use custom textures, and if so, to what extent ?
- From the screenies, one can tell you're using standard Doom II skies. Is it set in stone, or what are you going to do about it ?
- Is there a map slot list somewhere, so that people may choose their slot ?

[Zetta]

Thank you Wilou, as for your questions:
-Mappers can only use Doom2 textures, and textures from the hr3res pack.
-Some maps will have new skys, although there has been little discusion on it, we are thinking (THINKING) of making a hr3 expansion pack after the wad is made. but it is too soon to tell.
- As i said in the first post, we will come to you if we think you could be a valuable addition to the team, we are doing this so we don't get inexperienced mappers walking in and ruining stuff. So if you are intrested in helping, post a link to your wad in this thread, and if we like what we see (Pottus Set and I will vote) you're in.

[chroz]

What I've seen of the levels so far looks promising.. we have good mappers on the team :)

[Zetta]

Forty-Two welcome to the HR3 team/Musicians!

[TMD]

I have been working on A HR style map for a while. I'm interested. Ill keep you posted.

[esselfortium]

Since this is a vanilla project involving lots of large, wide-open areas, I should mention the same thing I did to Tib on IRC last night:

Careful use of textures in scenes without much geometric detail, particularly custom-fitted textures that fit to the size of map structures, will make the difference between "butt-ugly 1995 map" and "sleek, clean design".

So, it might be worth reconsidering the texture regulations a bit.

[Zetta]

Yeah, i hear ya. We are also looking for texture and flat artists whom may be able to help us get some more variety in there.

[VinceDSS]

Zetta said:
As i said in the first post, we will come to you if we think you could be a valuable addition to the team, we are doing this so we don't get in experienced mappers walking in and ruining stuff.

This statement sounds a bit ambiguous and counter-intuitive.
By definition an experienced/good mapper will not "ruin" stuff but instead improve it.
Of course I am sure there are plenty of great newcomers. But denying experienced authors is a bit silly and may not end up in favor of the project.

chroz said:

What I've seen of the levels so far looks promising.. we have good mappers on the team :)

glad to hear that :)

[esselfortium]

I think he means "inexperienced", not "in experienced". He wants experienced mappers.

[VinceDSS]

that indeed explains **

[Zetta]

lol yeah, silly mistake **

[JadedLexi]

This thread has my attention.

[TimeOfDeath]

Sorry to be a jerk, but I thought the story was kinda lolly. You and your friends want to make a wad, then eventually want to call it HR3. Why do you want to call it HR3? There have been lots of great "HR-style" wads over the years and many mappers/players still make wads in that style. Calling your wad HR3 will immediately give your project lots of attention. How can the "founder" of a sequel give you permission to use the original name?

[Zetta]

TimeOfDeath said:

Sorry to be a jerk, but I thought the story was kinda lolly. You and your friends want to make a wad, then eventually want to call it HR3. Why do you want to call it HR3? There have been lots of great "HR-style" wads over the years and many mappers/players still make wads in that style. Calling your wad HR3 will immediately give your project lots of attention. How can the "founder" of a sequel give you permission to use the original name?

Well, finding the original founders would be near impossible (we tried btw). But we thought that it would be very nice if HR were put to its full potential. It is the name, yes. But a sequel seemed appropriate. Chroz has been trying to find old HR2 members who once worked on HR, so if he finds some in the near future we'll see what we can do.

[TimeOfDeath]

VinceDSS said:

Good luck anyhow and most of all choose your testers well. I mean compet-n caliber testers, some mapping experience would be a plus. In other other words, some very critical people are a plus for such a project. Don't do a favor to a lazy buddy of yours.

I think mappers should test their own maps. If they make "compet-n caliber" maps, they should be able to test their wads like a "compet-n caliber" player would.

[Zetta]

Yeah, what we do is we test our own maps on online servers. Basically, HR3.wad doesn't leave the possession of the HR3 team. We are doing this for two reasons, 1) Someone can leak the maps. 2) While playing our own maps with others we easily notice errors that someone who didn't make the map wouldn't.

BTW, i know there is some concern about what 'I' am working on, so...
http://img64.imageshack.us/slideshow/webplayer.php?id=screenshotdoom200911190.png

[Khorus]

Zetta said
While playing our own maps with others we easily notice errors that someone who didn't make the map wouldn't.

heh, oh dear..


This project doesn't interest me as a player or designer, but good luck with it.

[Pavera]

Zetta said:

2) While playing our own maps with others we easily notice errors that someone who didn't make the map wouldn't.

What? Outside playtesters are quite vital to a polished product. A person who didn't make the map is much more likely to spot oddities and bad gameplay than the person who knows his way around every obstacle.

[myk]

Zetta said:
But we thought that it would be very nice if HR were put to its full potential.

This seems rather pretentious, even without coming from someone who "came out of the blue". I usually prefer offshoot projects that are inspired by something because the guys making the derivative love the original, not because they think it falls short. If something is flawed, there must be something more convenient to be inspired by, instead. There are many people that like HR for what it is and won't be amused.

Besides, you say full potential, but you said you'd be concentrating on strategic game play oriented levels with less monsters. Like Plutonia, HR is about strategy and game play, but by using many monsters. By your description, your WAD will likely turn out more like Plutonia than HR, in game play. Why call it HR something? Besides, to be honest, your stated dislike of Plutonia 2 playability makes me a bit skeptical of what you will pull off, since I think play there is pretty awesome.

I'm all for more vanilla map sets. I like being able to run them with the original game behavior (even the original executable), the demo recording and speed running activity that surrounds them, the online play they can attract and the general "low detail" aesthetic, but are you sure you need to call this HR3, and not free yourself to your personal style to simply make a classic megawad of your taste, taking influences more freely to your full potential? Maybe projects like HR2, PL2 and TNT2 made a fad of sorts to reuse names thought up by other people, but lets look back in time. Many good classic megawads through the years were made without having to do that; Memento Mori I & II (these were basically done by the same team), Requiem, Hell Revealed, and Alien Vendetta, for example, to name some rather well-known ones, all had their own names and character. Why not follow suit?

[Abyssalstudios1]

[Super Jamie]

myk said:

all had their own names and character. Why not follow suit?

I agree with this. Whilst you guys aren't so well known around classic mapping circles, I'm not as closed-minded as to discount you as a bunch of noobs making "my first megawad". Still, blessing of the previous wad's leader or not, you are a new mapping team. I feel you should create your own "intellectual property" and title, rather than riding on the successes of those who came before you.

It's no secret that Alien Vendetta was greatly inspired by the original Hell Revealed, but it's by a new crew and wound up being good enough to stand on its own two feet and then some. Do you doubt your ability to do the same?

[TimeOfDeath]

I'd guess that HR's full potential, as intended by the original authors, was achieved the day they released HR.wad.

About the playtesting thing: I think releasing maps publicly is great for testing (in the past I've poked fun at keeping projects super-secret) - I just think testing is a mandatory aspect of mapping (including testing to the skill level that you want your map to be played at, like compet-n caliber).

[Butts]

I totally fucking care what this wad is called! It totally affects the gameplay!