The /newstuff Chronicles #361

[Guest]

ArmouredBlood said:

Yay, someone at least likes some of the maps ;)

Dude! The gameplay on these maps was exceptional. Ok, Ok a few of them looked a little bland, but this is more than forgiveable, seeing as this is a part of the 'style'. Overall, these were great.

[Shaikoten]

rrr said:
What I have in mind is making an environment first, then making a game inside it [or not, as appropriate].

Take any single one of the ultra-realistic, uber detailed FPSes of the past couple of years. Guess what their level designers do. They build for gameplay FIRST and then make everything beautiful. They may work off of the framework of generally what the interior of a building looks like, and adjust it to-ahem-the meat world, but these are generally all laid out with an emphasis on gameplay.

rrr said:
This is how and why golf courses are the only detailed playing areas in the meat world.

It's called reading comprehension. I just covered this in my last post. Golf courses are not the only detailed playing areas in reality.

[rrr]

esselfortium--I'm so terribly sorry, I misread your comment ["Cool, that isn't what actually happens though"]. No, it's not what happens usually, but I find that it works great! Build your artistic holodeck, then build the game inside that. The game blends perfectly with the detailing. [This is the second one I owe you, essel, I owe you one earlier for getting your name wrong, too.]

[Cjwright79]

Anyway since Mionic didn't care for Animasse, you can watch someone playing it who did. Pretty thrilling stuff as close as I can figure.

http://members.shaw.ca/cjwright79/animasse-and-demo.zip

[TMD]

Oh goodness me, what have I done. Have I gone and upset somebody who has apparently never taken and/or accepted criticism before in their life?

Go ahead and ignore any advice and at least somewhat encouraging words that I did provide, and be grateful you didn't see deathz0rs review of it. You probably would have gone and cried for a week. On second thought...its only been 3 days since this review came out and you only seem to have been crying since then. Ill just stop thinking about what horrors may have occured if he had his way and move on to my next point.

You'll never get any better as a mapper if you close yourself off to people who had problems with your map and didnt go OMG BEST THING EVER CACOWARD MATERIAL RIGHT HERE YO! If you read the whole review (which it seems you haven't, but hey, I may be wrong) I said you have potential, but you are going with quantity over quality.

...

Also, something about gw2.

[rrr]

Shaikoten [re: 01-29-10 12:07]--I do not agree that "divets and disparities" in playing fields are "detailing" of the game or playing field. I do not agree that advertisements at stadia are detailing of the game or of the playing field. I do not agree that the architecture of a stadium is detailing of the playing field or the game itself [a game has to exist somewhere]. Certainly the examples of meat-world sports detailing you tried to give are nothing like the detailing of Greenwar 2, where entirely new objects are placed on the playing fields and the playing fields are altered in size, shape, and positioning.
Shaikoten--I challenge you to give some clear examples of detailing in meat-world sports, comparable to what was done in Greenwar 2.

[TMD]

rrr said:

Shaikoten [re: 01-29-10 12:07]--I do not agree that "divets and disparities" in playing fields are "detailing" of the game or playing field. I do not agree that advertisements at stadia are detailing of the game or of the playing field. I do not agree that the architecture of a stadium is detailing of the playing field or the game itself [a game has to exist somewhere]. Certainly the examples of meat-world sports detailing you tried to give are nothing like the detailing of Greenwar 2, where entirely new objects are placed on the playing fields and the playing fields are altered in size, shape, and positioning.
Shaikoten--I challenge you to give some clear examples of detailing in meat-world sports, comparable to what was done in Greenwar 2.

Somebody has never played baseball in Sweden..

[rrr]

In Sweden, do they have balls?

[Cjwright79]

TheMionicDonut said:

Oh goodness me, what have I done. Have I gone and upset somebody who has apparently never taken and/or accepted criticism before in their life?

Let me know when you've gotta over your sarcastic streak, then I may have something to say in return.

[esselfortium]

Cjwright79 said:

Sarcasm doesn't pay. Don't do it. Or do, and see how it works out for you. Overall though, you conduct is so foul and contemptible that I have little else to say to you. Were you one of Sauron's minions in a previous life?

In b4 the edit

[Cjwright79]

esselfortium said:

In b4 the edit

God I hate immature people! Get over yourself essel!

[TMD]

Cjwright79 said:

God I hate immature people! Get over yourself essel!

Must be a pretty bad case of self loathing then...

Also why does this sound vaguely familiar...

And if you refuse to listen i will keep mixing some type of constructive criticism and sarcasm then i will keep doing just that in newstuff for your wads. You will either improve your quality or quit mapping in a fit of rage because somebody doesn't like your work. Either way I win out.

And regarding Saurons minions...no. But I was a member of the spanish Inquisition squad. Bet you werent expecting that!

EDIT: And another thing.
http://marcibones.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/shitstorm-flyer.jpg

[Shaikoten]

rrr said:

Shaikoten [re: 01-29-10 12:07]--I do not agree that "divets and disparities" in playing fields are "detailing" of the game or playing field. I do not agree that advertisements at stadia are detailing of the game or of the playing field. I do not agree that the architecture of a stadium is detailing of the playing field or the game itself [a game has to exist somewhere]. Certainly the examples of meat-world sports detailing you tried to give are nothing like the detailing of Greenwar 2, where entirely new objects are placed on the playing fields and the playing fields are altered in size, shape, and positioning.
Shaikoten--I challenge you to give some clear examples of detailing in meat-world sports, comparable to what was done in Greenwar 2.

One of you gripes with Greenwar 2 was things outside of the playing field distracting from gameplay, and the surrounding overhead architecture pulling the eye away. This is in your paper. And I'm saying that exists in every single stadium ever built. Ever. Also, there's something about 40,000 fans cheering or booing that's pretty distracting too. Also, here's another baseball example. You know how fielders dive over a wall to catch a stray baseball? They hang billboards on those walls. Billboards that they could BUMP INTO! Also railings! Also a fan could reach out and cause a snag for them! Also someone could throw a beer bottle onto the field, or a beach ball could bounce in from outside to cause distraction in the middle of an intense play!

I'm pretty sure baseball players don't write huge long papers about how a slight bump in the wall affects their meat world equivalent of wallrunning. And don't try to tell me that's not the same, because it is, exactly. It is a detail, not put there for gameplay reasons, which visually distracts and potentially causes snags in movement.

But this is all for the sake of argument. I don't see why Doom maps should even conform to "meat world sporting events." Isn't Doom a simulation about killing things? Wouldn't the closest approximation of Doom be a battlefield and not a sports field? And consequently in a place where you kill things, you typically have random crap scattered around and obstacles. AND it looks realistic. So, just throwing that out there, I think your whole analogy doesn't work at all.

[Craigs]

Cjwright79 said:

God I hate immature people!

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/9/9d/Iron.JPG/400px-Iron.JPG

Good God, I haven't seen a /newstuff thread this entertaining since Deathz0r's review of KDIZD. On one hand you've got rrr who can't seem to realize just how retarded his comparisons are, and yet he continues to spew them out, blissfully unaware of just how much of how god damn stupid he's making himself look.
Then you've got Cjwright79, the oversensitive man child who flips the fuck out over every single negative comment or suggestion for his maps, regardless of whether their insulting or not.

I'm loving every new reply to this thread and I want to thank you all.

[kristus]

Shaikoten said:

Stuff

rrr has previously been inconsistent in his arguments so this should come as no surprise, and I agree with all you said regarding sports. However, I don't and never will compare Doom DM to a battlefield. It much more like a duelistic sport like fencing, boxing or golf. While there are obvious similiarities to war. It's cornerstones are in the competition.

EDIT: THough I suppose war is in itself a kind of competition as well.

[Craigs]

kristus said:

rrr has previously been inconsistent in his arguments so this should come as no surprise, and I agree with all you said regarding sports. However, I don't and never will compare Doom DM to a battlefield. It much more like a duelistic sport like fencing, boxing or golf. While there are obvious similiarities to war. It's cornerstones are in the competition.

EDIT: THough I suppose war is in itself a kind of competition as well.

IN B4 rrr Metaphor about putting flower pots on golf courses.

[rrr]

Shaikoten, you made the claim that detailing and sports have gone together since Roman times [01-29-10 12:07]. When I challenged you about that, you did two things. You gave some possible examples, and you said you didn't see why it mattered. Why did you make the claim in the first place if it doesn't matter?
Regarding the possible examples you gave, they are pretty clearly not "detailing" but mostly accidental happenings. Your claim was about detailing. Detailing is done on purpose. Where in the world, or when in history, have sports fields [or battlefields] been "detailed" or "decorated" on purpose?

[Fletcher`]

Craigs said:

IN B4 rrr Metaphor about putting flower pots on golf courses.

I've seen them on minigolf courses.

[Craigs]

rrr said:

Regarding the possible examples you gave, they are pretty clearly not "detailing" but mostly accidental happenings. Your claim was about detailing. Detailing is done on purpose. Where in the world, or when in history, have sports fields [or battlefields] been "detailed" or "decorated" on purpose?

He mentioned banners, ads, and shit like that. But I guess someone accidently left those there.. I guess the sandbags, fox holes, pill boxes, etc. you find on battlefields are accidents too.

Oh and seriously, use the quote feature. I know it's pretty hard for someone... special... such as yourself to figure out how it works but I drew this map for you that should help you find it. I made sure I used easy words so that you'd be able to read it. I understand that people like you have a hard time understanding big words.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8367/how2quote.jpg

I've seen them on minigolf courses.

Obviously whoever left them there has no experience in the art of minigolf because something like that could severely hamper gameplay.

[Shaikoten]

rrr said:

Shaikoten, you made the claim that detailing and sports have gone together since Roman times [01-29-10 12:07]. When I challenged you about that, you did two things. You gave some possible examples, and you said you didn't see why it mattered. Why did you make the claim in the first place if it doesn't matter?
Regarding the possible examples you gave, they are pretty clearly not "detailing" but mostly accidental happenings. Your claim was about detailing. Detailing is done on purpose. Where in the world, or when in history, have sports fields [or battlefields] been "detailed" or "decorated" on purpose?

"OK, so we just happened to accidentally and conveniently drop these advertisements on the wall."
"Eh, screw it, we'll keep it there."

"Jerry, did you mow the field yet?"
"Yeah, but I randomly etched in the team logo into the grass at varying heights."
"Eh, whatever."

"What the hell is the deal with these support beams and bleachers all around this stadium? They cast shadows interfering with the field."
"I put them there accidentally, sorry."

[Abyssalstudios1]

Craigs, your quote explanation has made things simple for a guy like me. Thank you.

[TimeOfDeath]

I've only played a few of Chris Wright's maps so far, but I really liked Bad Bethlehem ('09) and Highlands ('95). I hope he puts all of his maps into a megawad when he has 32 maps or whatever.

[Gez]

So, I've read the debate on deathmatch being like a sport that needs no distraction or stuff, and I think I've come up with the perfect layout for the cyberathlete: http://files.drdteam.org/index.php/files/get/3LiXl2-VJj/dmrrrena.zip

No details, so it's pure gameplay. Genius is guaranteed.

[Joshy]

Obviously whoever left them there has no experience in the art of minigolf because something like that could severely hamper gameplay.

I hate them, they give me the shits. Whenever my ball's on the edge, I have to move off the course, and stand on these shitty ornaments as a means to hit the ball. Usually the ball goes off target since my balance is thrown off, so yeah, there goes the gameplay... and usually my patience... and my putt-stick!

Chris Wright, I'm going to say this, no insults or anything: go and play other people's maps (I suggest Scythe 1 or Alien Vendetta, those are excellent demo-recording maps), and compare them to yours. Simple as that. I've noticed you seem to like people making demos on your maps (I've noticed only Phml does them?). Nothing wrong about that but you'll get a lot more people doing that if you make more progress on your maps and make more elaborate designs that requires more speedrunning skills like utilising shortcuts, gameplay strategies and so on. When I played your maps, the gameplay wasn't half bad. Granted there were few good moments but it felt like it was lacking substance and rationality. Sure the design doesn't have to be overly witty or whatever but if you look at Hell Revealed Map24's Post Mortem, finishing that map was one of the greatest thrills I had playing doom and the design was perfect enough albeit very simply done. Hope that made sense.

EDIT: Phml pretty much said it all.

[Phml]

I hope he puts all of his maps into a megawad when he has 32 maps or whatever.

*nods*

Apart from that, I'd say that while there can be valid concerns about his maps (just like most maps), most of the critics seem misplaced. I'm personally having more fun playing his maps than, to use examples in this /newstuff, Year 22 (which received praises from the same reviewer who didn't like Animasse) or Clau 1024 2.

That doesn't mean these maps are worse or bad, and this is kind of what I'm getting at : different strokes for different folks. There's a logic in Chris' maps, from texture usage to monster placement ; just because it might differ from the established norm (whatever that is - I honestly can't tell what's the game design logic in most wads I play ; I'm not saying there isn't one, but that I don't understand it) doesn't mean it's random.

It can make it boring for most folks, and people are entitled to their opinion and their reviews. However, telling him to just spend more time on his stuff won't do anything to turn his maps into the generic detailed techbases most people seem to enjoy. It's a matter of different style, not amount of effort or hours.

Now, Chris, I like your maps and all, but I feel this has to be said. You're doing yourself a disservice by ranting the way you just did here. Frankly, that was ridiculous. You've got to accept your maps as they are are controversial, and your two choices are to either fit in and make the same old, same old detailed techbases, or stick with your own style and ignore negative reviews if it gets to you.

No less silly are some of the Greenwar2 guys. Way to overreact because someone dared to advance the idea that maybe, that wad wasn't absolutely perfect in every way. From this outsider's perspective, you all look pretty stupid backing up each other like a sandbox gang and belittling your opponents rather than adressing their points. The irony award goes to Craigs, who mentions irony himself, goes batshit crazy posting picture and picture treating rrr like he's retarded *and* manages to mock Chris for overreacting, all in the same breath. Pot, kettle, etc..

Interesting situation in a way, on one hand people complaining about a map being too '94 (and the author bitching about it), on the other hand people complaining about a map being too detailed (and the authors bitching about it)... You'd think we could find a happy medium by just switching the reviewers, although that would mean no drama to enjoy.

Who cares, the best wads in #361 were SL and DD's maps. There, I too can use my personal preference as the only metric for evaluating Doom maps. :)

[esselfortium]

Phml said:

No less silly are some of the Greenwar2 guys. Way to overreact because someone dared to advance the idea that maybe, that wad wasn't absolutely perfect in every way.

It's not that. I'm well aware there are plenty of imperfections, including but not limited to my own work on the wad. We're not debating that, but the validity of some of rrr's other statements, and of someone who had such close involvement with Hellbent in the early stages of the project's development review it for /newstuff, considering the usual self-imposed /newstuff reviewing regulations.

[TMD]

Trust me if i didnt have work in, and therefore a bias towards gw2 id have snaged it immediately. But that was not the case.

[myk]

rrr said:
Build your artistic holodeck, then build the game inside that. The game blends perfectly with the detailing.

What is a holodeck in this context? Not everyone watches TV! Still, "art first, game later" is sounding counter-intuitive...

[GreyGhost]

Gez said:

So, I've read the debate on deathmatch being like a sport that needs no distraction or stuff, and I think I've come up with the perfect layout for the cyberathlete: http://files.drdteam.org/index.php/files/get/3LiXl2-VJj/dmrrrena.zip

No details, so it's pure gameplay. Genius is guaranteed.

A slightly flawed work of genius, getting snagged while wallrunning is possible and the light level's inappropriate for a heavily overcast day in the "meat-world".

Fixed

[zap610]

Cjwright79 said:

God I hate immature people! Get over yourself essel!

You're pathetic.