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Bloodshedder

The /newstuff Chronicles #361

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Janitor Reviews Everything in /newstuff #361

It sucks. It all sucks. Everyone needs to work on their detail. Everyone should check this guide and try again for the next edition of T/nC. If next edition's quality isn't at least at this standard, so help me god, I am going to give bad reviews and negative feedback to every single last one of you.

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Consider me a conscientious objector to high detail. There's only so many sectors my little netbook can handle before saving and 3d mode take objectionably long. And it hurts me to fuss over details when I appreciate gameplay far more.

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esselfortium said:

And there are people who criticize them and think they suck for whatever reason, too. And that's normal.


Anyone have a guess what the psychology is there? Or is it simply a matter of having unattainably high standards?

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Cjwright79 said:

Consider me a conscientious objector to high detail. There's only so many sectors my little netbook can handle before saving and 3d mode take objectionably long. And it hurts me to fuss over details when I appreciate gameplay far more.


You don't need a shitload of borders, random lights, consoles, marble carvings, tits, etc. to have a good looking map. Many of the maps in Espi's Back to Basics don't have much in the way of detail but thanks to the architecture and texture choices, they still look pretty nice. The main problem I have with your maps' appearances are the choice of textures. They clash way too much and generally just make the map look extremely tacky.

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Cjwright79 said:

Consider me a conscientious objector to high detail. There's only so many sectors my little netbook can handle before saving and 3d mode take objectionably long. And it hurts me to fuss over details when I appreciate gameplay far more.

Patrick was being facetious.

But yeah, what Craigs said. A good-looking map doesn't need to be geometrically complex if it's designed and textured well enough.

Cjwright79 said:

Anyone have a guess what the psychology is there? Or is it simply a matter of having unattainably high standards?

Different people value different things, is all.

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Cjwright79 said:

Anyone have a guess what the psychology is there? Or is it simply a matter of having unattainably high standards?


Not really. Its more a matter of "people have different tastes." I'd sooner play a low-detail Doom mod than play a super-high-tech limit breaking Half-Life 2 mod for the simple reason that I like Doom more. That awesome Half-Life map might be truly awesome, but its easier to play and install a Doom mod.

ALSO: MAKE LOVE, NOT MORE SECTORS

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Craigs said:

You don't need a shitload of borders, random lights, consoles, marble carvings, tits, etc. to have a good looking map. Many of the maps in Espi's Back to Basics don't have much in the way of detail but thanks to the architecture and texture choices, they still look pretty nice. The main problem I have with your maps' appearances are the choice of textures. They clash way too much and generally just make the map look extremely tacky.

B2B became monotonous and repetitive due to the safe and sure uniform texture choices; sorta lacked in the creativity dept.

GreyGhost said:

You jumped! That's cheating! :P

It raises the red pillars near the exit switch.

huh? there were no pillars when I got to the exit area. Hmm... I think an archvile may have gotten me there? No, that was how I died. I actually don't remember how I got to the exit chamber. I could watch the demo of the game, but I think I'd rather just replay the map. I didn't jump tho.

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Hellbent said:

B2B became monotonous and repetitive due to the safe and sure uniform texture choices; sorta lacked in the creativity dept.

Seriously? I thought it was pretty varied considering that it didn't use a single non-Doom.wad texture other than the new sky.

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Hellbent said:

B2B became monotonous and repetitive due to the safe and sure uniform texture choices; sorta lacked in the creativity dept.

Heresy. It's intentionally made to be low on detail, uses only IWAD textures, yet still ends up looking better than most peoples' serious efforts at theming.

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Hellbent said:

B2B became monotonous and repetitive due to the safe and sure uniform texture choices; sorta lacked in the creativity dept.


Despite this being a purely subjective matter, you are wrong.


While I'm at it, I'll share some brief thoughts on other things in this thread (while leaving most posts unread):

Detail versus gameplay in deathmatch maps
Even if a detailed deathmatch map has none of the obvious problems caused by detailing, like obstructions to movement or blocked lines of sight, a complex area always takes longer to visually process than a simple one (eg. 0.5 seconds versus 0.2) and this can be the difference between life and death in deathmatch. If one is aware of the exact shape of the gameworld 0.3 seconds faster, then one can dodge attacks more effectively and live to kill again. Becoming familiar with a map largely eliminates this delay, but it exists when a map is first played, and it is thus impossible to dress up a dm map while preserving its full utilitarian value as a playing field. However, I do also like pretty maps, so I'm more than willing to settle for a map that plays 96% as well as it could instead of 100%.

Detail versus gameplay in single player maps
Single player maps generally give the player that extra 0.3 seconds to think, and also, the best ones (in my opinion) take the opportunity to create emotions in the player other than "you win/you lose" so I don't feel that detailing or representational architecture come with any inherent cost to gameplay. It's certainly possible to let gameplay suffer by focusing too much on some other aspect (which I feel happens in Rex Claussen's work for example, and Vader's too, to be honest) but it doesn't have to. When everything is done right, gameplay will be more interesting for being based in some interesting architectural environment, and the mapper will have had the insight to recognize the gameplay potential existing in the structures he wishes to represent.

Cj's maps
Dude, you can go on all day about your stylistic and conceptual aims and about how the haters don't "get" your maps and etc., but the fact of the matter is that there are mappers with the same aims as you have, who do what you do, better. Learn to accept criticism. Then use it.

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Awww, c'mon, what kind of newstuff would this be without pointless controversy?

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Cjwright79 said:

And it hurts me to fuss over details when I appreciate gameplay far more.



Well, sorry to burst your bubble but the maps you made which I did check out sucked as much gameplay wise as they sucked detail wise.

They play like n00bish 1994 maps, have no interesting layout and are just no fun to play. I think before making such statements as the one I quoted you should check out some of the acknowledged classics and think about what these maps did right that you did wrong. Unless you understand that I think you better not make another map anymore - because it'll suck as much as the stuff you made before.

The fact that they look like randomly thrown together garbage (i.e nonsensual layout and randomly thrown together textures) does not help either.

You are on the fast track into the same category as some (in)famous mappers like Giulio Galassi or Ruba and that's company I'd not feel comfortable with.


Even Slige, as bad as it is, can create better ones.

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Super Jamie said:
Heresy. It's intentionally made to be low on detail, uses only IWAD textures, yet still ends up looking better than most peoples' serious efforts at theming.

I like b2b, and I am glad I can play it, but I agree it's a flaw, although I wouldn't call it a "lack of creativity". It's just an aspect of creativity that doesn't impress me that much. Espi is one of my favorite designers despite this monotony weakness, just like Alien Vendetta has some great layouts and playability despite some resource mish-mashing. Not that brown is the only color used, some levels are of other colors in general, but if someone mentions b2b I do get the word "brown". Kind of like Quake is brown. It's not all brown but it gives that impression. Espi tended to paint his levels in one general color, that was part of his mapping idiosyncrasy. What gets old about this theming thing is when it narrows down to color restrictions. That can be done, sometimes, but themes can be varied and many bolder color combinations can work depending on the mood and style desired, and whether colors used merge, contrast or clash will be part of that. In Espi, the monotony flaw is also part of his expression, so it's not that I'm saying that he should have done it differently, knowing that it is part of what gave his maps their character.

Creaphis said:
Dude, you can go on all day about your stylistic and conceptual aims and about how the haters don't "get" your maps and etc., but the fact of the matter is that there are mappers with the same aims as you have, who do what you do, better. Learn to accept criticism. Then use it.

The same "general aims" but not specific ones. Most people who develop a style tend to get pretty unique. Besides, accepting criticism and accepting abuse aren't the same thing, and accepting suitable criticism and dismissing less relevant criticism are also two things. Not that this comment is meant to encourage him to moan or rant more, though, because the issue here is two-headed.

Graf Zahl said:
You are on the fast track into the same category as some (in)famous mappers like Giulio Galassi or Ruba and that's company I'd not feel comfortable with.

Lets see... Ruba is a joke-mapper (an acclaimed one, at that, if you consider the last cacowards) and this guy is hardly like Galassi. He's miles ahead of him because he managed to make maps a good number of seasoned players liked or found potential in, and he has hardly matched Giulio's level of childish behavior.

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myk said:

In Espi, the monotony flaw is also part of his expression, so it's not that I'm saying that he should have done it differently, knowing that it is part of what gave his maps their character.

I have thought the same thing, though I don't consider it a flaw as I love the brown/metal textureset and have even made a few inferior brown-on-brown maps of my own just to walk around and look at things. To see it done so well in B2B makes me remember all over again why I love Doom. I guess it's just a preference.

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Patrick said:

Awww, c'mon, what kind of newstuff would this be without pointless controversy?


At least we have CIF4 material.

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I myself have always wondered why Back 2 Basics is touted as quite so amazing. I found it quite dull myself, both visually and in gameplay - the maps seemed to go on too long, and the lack of change in theme merely accentuated this. I did enjoy Suspended in Dusk quite a lot, but again it's not one of my all time favourites, and I think there are ways maps can be made to look better.

I did appreciate (and be inspired by) the interconnectivity and usage of windows in these wads though, and I do feel other mappers could learn from this. I think "be like Espi" isn't as good a piece of advice as some may believe though (much like "be like T667" or "be like Vader" also have their flaws).

This is just my opinion however, and anybody whos played a couple of my (more recent) maps can easily see what I prefer to have in a map. However, I don't want anybody to start mapping like me - part of the fun in this game is that mods are people's own expressions. I have certainly enjoyed playing some maps that are the polar opposite of what I strive for in my maps.

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myk said:

He's miles ahead of him because he managed to make maps a good number of seasoned players liked or found potential in, and he has hardly matched Giulio's level of childish behavior.



So you don't call his whiny attitude childish?

Also where's the potential? For that a certain willingness to learn is needed - which judging from his reactions is not particularly well developed. And the 3 maps I checked out were beyond atrocious design wise.

I'll grant any mapper an initial learning phase in which the resulting product is of lower quality. But how am I supposed to expect any improvement if the person in question rejects any criticism and continues like he did before?

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Creaphis said:

Dude, you can go on all day about your stylistic and conceptual aims and about how the haters don't "get" your maps and etc., but the fact of the matter is that there are mappers with the same aims as you have, who do what you do, better.

I might actually believe this if I could find a map I enjoyed playing! But nothing I try has enough expansive freedom or a style that I appreciate.

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Graf Zahl said:

Well, sorry to burst your bubble but the maps you made which I did check out sucked as much gameplay wise as they sucked detail wise.


See, when I hear this kind of graceless language (sucked), I am totally turned off what you are saying. It goes to no good use, your criticism, if it falls on deaf ears. You must be considerate of an author, at least this author, because someone using this language puts themselves beneath my consideration. I do not wish to cater to a person so lacking in social graces. If that's just who you are, then so be it, perhaps I have made my last map for a while.

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Graf Zahl said:

So you don't call his whiny attitude childish?


Hey, I already apologized for my whines, so if we can get past that, that would be great.

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Graf Zahl said:
So you don't call his whiny attitude childish?

I did call it something like that, but not like Galassi's. Haven't I been encouraging him to chill, look forward and act more maturely in more than one post?

But how am I supposed to expect any improvement if the person in question rejects any criticism and continues like he did before?

It's normal to reject criticism that the designer or developer doesn't feel fits his ideas. Perhaps later he will take some that he has yet rejected anyway, but it will be a matter of incorporating it into his priorities. I mean, you're not going to add vanilla demo compatibility or backwards demo compatibility between versions to GZDoom because those features don't fit with your development line or at least aren't really important in them, but that doesn't mean you are unwilling to listen to criticism or don't make fixes or changes due to input. Add to that someone insisting on those features in a rude or degrading way.

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Cjwright79 said:

I might actually believe this if I could find a map I enjoyed playing! But nothing I try has enough expansive freedom or a style that I appreciate.

Maybe you should start a "Recommend me some wads" thread, define the style of map you're looking for then see what pops up. Map27 of Eternal Doom IV should be expansive enough for you.

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GreyGhost said:

Maybe you should start a "Recommend me some wads" thread, define the style of map you're looking for then see what pops up. Map27 of Eternal Doom IV should be expansive enough for you.


Single wads seem to be largely passed over in favor of large compilations... why? I really like just popping into a game for a five or ten minute session -- surely I'm not the only one.

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Technically this isn't that large of a compilation; it was released as a demo of just several maps, with the intent for the remaining mapslots to be filled in for an eventual full release. MAP27 is a standalone level that can be played on its own regardless of whether you want to look at the rest of the wad.

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It's a Doom map for ZDoom. Many ZDoom maps are made using the Hexen map format because it's, in some ways, more featured than the Doom map format. That doesn't mean it has anything to do with the game Hexen, though; the map format has nothing to do with which game it can run in. Play it in ZDoom, using Doom2.wad like you would with anything else.

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Yeah, it's better than most, but I still got bored with it pretty quickly. The gloomy atmosphere didn't help, nor did the Archvile right off the bat, when you only have a shotty. Still, thanks for the recommendation.

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