CGCmplex + Killphml + Astican

[Cjwright79]

http://members.shaw.ca/cjwright79/CGCmplex.wad
http://members.shaw.ca/cjwright79/CGCmplex.txt

[Phml]

FDA, 2 deaths, 100% kills third try. I got interrupted a few times, which is why some of my movements are erratic (the first death is entirely my fault, though).

I like it so far. Seeing those claustrophobic corridors near the entrance I chose to go outside instead, but then seeing all these rockets scattered and no RL in sight I knew I had to go back...

Edit : new zip with old wad used next to demo.

[Cjwright79]

Excellent. There's now alternative SSs and RLs.

EDIT: Nice demo.

[Malinku]

I think you need to spend more time working on your map (before you post it here) as they are rather simple (in looks and gameplay). It seems that you are rushing your maps a bit you just need to slow down a bit and plan them out better.

[Cjwright79]

Kk.

[Cjwright79]

Updated (+40kb).

[Cjwright79]

Bump, significant additions.

[Malinku]

more review: R=Review F=Fix/Suggestion

the layout was weird just felt like a bunch oddly shaped room stuck together.(at times)

1R.the starting area was ok some detail need to be added (like supports) to break up the large single texture areas. The game play in the area was ok and hard a good amount of ammo with the secret.

2R.The dark tunnel was way to dark and cramped to be much fun. the area was also very flat.

3R.The first outside area was nice. (should be the main focus of the map)
but it was still kinda of flat making it a little boring.

4R. the marble and pipe area felt just completely random they didn't fit with the rest of the wad (which is mostly brick rock grass and water).
and the game play in these areas were cramped.

5R. the second outside area the layout is ok. the gameplay on the other hand is bad way too much health and not enough ammo.

1F. I would add more detail (as I stated in the R part) I would also add more hight variation to make the gameplay less boring.

2F. I would totally redo this area and make it more open. I would also add rooms that are above the water area and have the branches of water have more connectivity. (and add more detail)

3F. I wouldn't change this area much as it is the best area in the map . but you could add some areas where you walk up steps or down.

4F. I'm leaving this up to you mostly but, If your using doom builder you should use the curve tool so you don't have as many sharp corners

5F. some upper or lower areas (steps up or down to a room or ledge)

Gameplay. I found that there was little ammo to kill the monsters (which is not always bad). the monster placement felt random and didn't provide many interesting fights.
I would add more ammo and redo some of the monster placement.

just some suggestions and if you need screenshots/map to clarify I will make some test map to show what I mean.

[Terminus]

Monsters are placed so randomly at your maps it just feels weird and unbalanced. Please, work on monster placements (and even layouts, most of the stuff I see is huge rooms and hallways) on your next maps. I can see some great potential, but it doesn't seem like you're going anywhere.

[Cjwright79]

If there's one thing I take great care on, it's monster placement. At least by the end of this map everything should be well-refined. It's the best way of making a map good with the least amount of effort.

[Cjwright79]

EDIT: Wad and screenshots updated.

[Cjwright79]

Ok, done this sucker. Here's what I'm interested in:

1. Too hard here / too soft there
2. Too much ammo / not enough
3. Why was there a green armor there? There's already three nearby.
4. Too much health
5. Overall comments and impressions. High level commentary is most welcome of all.

Not interested in: texture choices, monster placements.

Am interested in: shouldn't this demon be deaf? Shouldn't you make these linedefs block sound? HOM found. Bug found. This teleporter doesn't go anywhere. Monster stuck inside lamp. Texture not aligned. Linedefs not smooth enough. Things of this nature.


Actually the number one thing I would like to clear out is anything that makes gameplay frustrating. Demos are extremely welcome.

[Phml]

Here's my attempt.

Thoughts : Fun. The interconnectivity was great, an improvement over your previous maps. Lots of different paths and options to choose from.

Ammo balance seemed spot on ; health was, as usual, a bit more abundant than absolutely necessary but as always, my position on this is that some overkill isn't so bad as it allows to play more aggressively. Fights were varied and interesting.

My one gameplay complaint would be the sprites (pillars, torches) in narrow corridors. The ones in sectors 37 and 52 are what I'm thinking about here. While it adds to visuals, it's easy to bump into these (especially if running backwards) and can be the difference between dodging a projectile or getting killed. I feel it would be better if these were "in" the wall, on a heightened sector as not to restrict movement. The explanation might be vague so let me provide a few screenshots to illustrate.

Original :
http://dl.toofiles.com/xyhspl/images/cgc1.jpg
http://dl.toofiles.com/xyhspl/images/cgc2.jpg

Change I'm suggesting :
http://dl.toofiles.com/xyhspl/images/cgc3.jpg
http://dl.toofiles.com/xyhspl/images/cgc4.jpg

Just an idea, and it could be done better of course.

Sector 145 wasn't tagged as a secret yet felt like that one.

Other than that, no issue that I could see. Good job.

[Cjwright79]

Two thoughts:

1. That was fun to watch
2. You're too good. I'll make my next map a lot more devious on UV.

[Cjwright79]

Alright, this isn't so much devious as difficult, but I'd like to see how it plays out.

The Audacity of Pain: http://members.shaw.ca/cjwright79/painaud.wad

[Phml]

FDA. Not enough ammo to kill everything without (ab)using infighting, I think. I die with only one "real" monster left because I was too scared to zigzag through lost souls to pick up shotguns...

[Cjwright79]

I don't consider infighting abusive. It's non-trivial and exposes you to some risk.

EDIT: Ok maybe I do if it becomes a drawn-out and boring affair.

Anyway, was that your first attempt? And more importantly, what sort of stuff do you find both satisfying and challenging in a map?

[myk]

Cjwright79 said:
Anyway, was that your first attempt?

Yeah, FDA means first demo attempt; to record your very first plays ever trying to reach the exit, in an unfamiliar level.

[Phml]

That was my first attempt.

As for your second question, it's kind of a broad topic and there's plenty of things I can occasionally enjoy - even generic techbases sometimes ! ;)

If done well, above all I tend to find monster hordes satisfying and challenging. There's that psychological feeling, being a lone marine taking on seemingly impossible odds ; even though sometimes these kind of maps are easier than maps with much less monsters, but much less space and armament as well.

Sunder by Insane_Gazebo embodies this style perfectly ; impressive, surreal architecture populated by swarms of hellspawn. This is the kind of gameplay you'll only find in Doom, an unique experience no other FPS that I know of allows for, thanks to the hard work of source ports coders and mappers.

Kind of going offtopic there as that's not really what your own maps are about. So as for maps with more conservative monster counts, I prefer layouts with interconnectivity, good flow, lots of space to maneuver and different ways to approach fights. Abstract architecture isn't a necessity but is a big plus.

In a nutshell, I like Doom being something other games can't be, focusing on what I feel are its strengths. While levels depicting realistic areas and focusing on smaller firefights can be fun in their own right, there'll always be the inevitable comparison in my mind with more recent games who can do that just as well and quite often better.

[Cjwright79]

myk said:

Yeah, FDA means first demo attempt; to record your very first plays ever trying to reach the exit, in an unfamiliar level.

Excellent, thanks Myk. I wondered if it stood for 'Ultra Violence' in French, since Phml's demos are hosted on un serveur Francaise.

[Cjwright79]

Phml said:

-text-

Very informative, thank you.

[Cjwright79]

K Phml, give this a go.

http://members.shaw.ca/cjwright79/killphml.wad

[ArmouredBlood]

fdas for this 'killphml' and painaud 'encounters'. I think you've got a really good grasp of fun and challenging gameplay (for some people), but your decision to make short, 5 minute encounters with no eye to texturing bugs the crap out of some people, like with the /newstuff. I'd suggest holding off on putting anything else onto the /newstuff until you amass an ep, or maybe even a whole megawad's worth of maps. Doing this puts all the maps in one wad so people can just pick one at random to challenge themselves with.

[Cjwright79]

Here's http://members.shaw.ca/cjwright79/killphml-2.wad

[Cjwright79]

ArmouredBlood said:

but your decision to make short, 5 minute encounters with no eye to texturing bugs the crap out of some people, like with the /newstuff. I'd suggest holding off on putting anything else onto the /newstuff until you amass an ep, or maybe even a whole megawad's worth of maps. Doing this puts all the maps in one wad so people can just pick one at random to challenge themselves with.

This isn't a finished wad. I doubt I'll publish too many more small wads. I do like feedback though, so semi-complete stuff I may confer with Phml (and others) on here. And I do mind texturing!

As for putting together a bunch of wads, I've never done that before. Is it straightforward?

EDIT: What's the idea behind punching the air?

[Phml]

FDA. This one wasn't hard, although I would have been toast if the archvile didn't get provoked by another monster before it could complete its attack. Great fun.

[Cjwright79]

Phml said:

FDA. This one wasn't hard, although I would have been toast if the archvile didn't get provoked by another monster before it could complete its attack. Great fun.

Fantastic. Despite the name the idea is not to kill you, but, like you said, for you to have fun. Good stuff.

[ArmouredBlood]

Heh, ok so the texturing thing was just animasse and to a lesser extent dagobah system, I thought some of your other ones were better. Putting maps together isn't very hard, in DB2 just give a map name MAP02 instead of MAP01 when first making it, then chose 'save into' instead of just save, so it saves into your larger wadfile. Adding existing maps to another wad can be harder though, you have to change the map# in a wad editor like XWE or slumped, then you can either save into with DB or merge files with the wad editors (which sometimes comes out funky. Use save into if possible).

I'm not sure on the exact code, but usually if you attack with the fist, monsters will more likely 'counter attack', which can help when trying to get infighting going. It's not always worth going into a semi-defenseless state, as you'll sometimes need the SSG to blast a path through to safety when the attempts to infight fail.

[Phml]

FDA for the second one. Uh oh, now that wasn't so easy !

Making multiple maps in the same wad is pretty easy. I don't know if it's the best way, but what I do personally with DB2 is I create a new map with the correct map number (i.e., map02) with just one sector and immediately click on File -> Save Map Into and save it into my wad.

As for punching air, I think it makes monsters more aggressive (attacking more often). I could be talking out of my ass, I just see all the pro demorecorders doing it when they want to infight so I just follow like a sheep. :)

Adding existing maps to another wad can be harder though, you have to change the map# in a wad editor like XWE or slumped, then you can either save into with DB or merge files with the wad editors (which sometimes comes out funky. Use save into if possible).

I think you can edit the map number in Edit -> Map Options and then just Save Map Into.

[ArmouredBlood]

Phml said:

I think you can edit the map number in Edit -> Map Options and then just Save Map Into.

Oh cool.

Nother fda, went more speedrunny at the end cause I didn't want to do the whole first bit over again.