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Csonicgo

MMR-Autism Research Paper Retracted

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Which part of "to do good or to do no harm" doesn't Wakefield understand? Best we can hope for is that snake-oil merchant having to justify his actions in a court of law.

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i had the MMR vaccine when I was 14; right about that time I suffered some pretty bad mental issues that affected all areas of my life and lasted many years. I also subscribe to homeopathy. I'm not convinced either way, but am suspicious of the vaccine.

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Hellbent said:

i had the MMR vaccine when I was 14; right about that time I suffered some pretty bad mental issues that affected all areas of my life and lasted many years.

Then again, that may have to do with you BEING FOURTEEN. Puberty does all kinds of fucked up things to you.

Also, homeopathy is a bullshit pseudoscience. You can't get a cure by drinking water.

If there were really some kind of big issue with vaccination, then there would be a LOT more fucked up people in the world, considering that in the 80s and 90s at least, the vast majority of children got their shots.

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Hellbent said:

I also subscribe to homeopathy.


For serious? If so, you just lost a thousand cool points bro.

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The problem with homeopathy is that stores like Boots are claiming that all alternative medicines - including herbal remedies - are homeopathy. They have also succeeded in convincing people that homeopathy is thus a 3000+ year-old practice, when in reality it's 300 years old and has always been kooky dilutions with water.

I've heard a homeopathy believer speak once about such things as "water memory" and related crap that isn't based on any credible science. and yet, the NHS is wasting money on it, France is ass-deep in it, and America is buying wax sticks and claiming that it cures headaches.

And for fucks sake - when the homeopathic remedy for influenza is a ridiculous dilution of duck liver, I really wonder why people don't think twice when they buy these stupid things.

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Csonicgo said:

I've heard a homeopathy believer speak once about such things as "water memory" and related crap that isn't based on any credible science.

Yeah, that's one of the basic tenets of homeopathy: as you dilute something, the water will "remember" the properties of the material you are diluting. The more dilute the better, too. It's also based on the belief that "like treats like". None of that germ theory nonsense, no no, you treat an illness with a diluted concentration of something that causes the same symptoms. Have you ever looked at the ingredients for a homeopathic sleep aid? It's caffeine.

Probably the most backward medical treatment theory I've heard of.

On subject, I'm glad that this paper has finally been retracted. It doesn't reverse the harm it has caused, but hopefully we can move on from this nonsense. I also hope Autism awareness and acceptance improves. It's not something that can be cured. The best thing a parent can do is love their child for who they are and work with them instead of looking for a cure or blaming something unrelated for their child's condition.

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Mr. Freeze said:

I had the vaccine, and I turned out fine. Your parents have shitty genes or something.

none of my three other siblings had the problems I did.

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Snarboo said:

Yeah, that's one of the basic tenets of homeopathy: as you dilute something, the water will "remember" the properties of the material you are diluting. The more dilute the better, too. It's also based on the belief that "like treats like". None of that germ theory nonsense, no no, you treat an illness with a diluted concentration of something that causes the same symptoms. Have you ever looked at the ingredients for a homeopathic sleep aid? It's caffeine.

Probably the most backward medical treatment theory I've heard of.


Not to mention that if all you need to do is dilute the substances in water, what happens when you drink tap water? That water has been in contact with so many different substances that you probably couldn't even count. Including fecal matter, and most likely a lot of toxic material.

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Nomad said:

Not to mention that if all you need to do is dilute the substances in water, what happens when you drink tap water? That water has been in contact with so many different substances that you probably couldn't even count. Including fecal matter, and most likely a lot of toxic material.

It's the fluoride that kills you.

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did some googling and found this: http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=7457&edition=2&ttl=20100203221507

"Do you believe in homeopathy?"

Heh. "Believe".

my favorite entry is this one:

According to the principles of homoeopathy, the more you dilute something, the more powerful it becomes.

So, here's a challenge to any homoeopaths out there: I challenge you to a drinking contest. You will drink neat gin, and I will drink gin diluted with 100 parts tonic water. I'll match you pint for pint. The last one standing is the winner. Deal?


EDIT: oh yeah, don't view comments by reader recommended. The first two are dead on then it's nothing but morons.

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Hellbent said:

i had the MMR vaccine when I was 14; right about that time I suffered some pretty bad mental issues that affected all areas of my life and lasted many years.

Correlation does not imply causation.

I also subscribe to homeopathy. I'm not convinced either way, but am suspicious of the vaccine.

Why? Have you actually read up on homeopathy, the things it claims, and how utterly ridiculous it is? I'm pretty sure most people who use homeopathic remedies do so out of ignorance.

The basic premises of homeopathy are bunk, and frankly absurd. They fly in the face of all basic scientific knowledge and common sense as well. The idea that the more you dilute something, the more potent it becomes, for example.

Homeopathic remedies use dilutions equivalent to that of a single molecule contained in within a sphere of water the size of the solar system, for example. At this concentration, from the knowledge that we now have of physics and chemistry (that we did not have in the 1700s when homeopathy was started), we can be almost certain that a homeopathic remedy does not contain any of the original "active" ingredient. There is literally no plausible way that it can affect you in any way, because you're drinking water / eating sugar pills.

I'm sure you've taken some homepathic remedies and found them to have helped you in some way. All I'll say is, read up on the placebo effect. It is a subtle and complicated phenomenon.

If it makes you feel any better, I, myself, was also misled by homeopathy: back in my teens I was given homeopathic remedies by my mother and at the time I genuinely believed that they were effective. In a sense, they were effective, because they had the desired effect in making me feel better. But I'm almost certain now that this was simply the result of the placebo effect. Back then I was ignorant of what I was taking and didn't think to question when I was told it was a real medicine.

EDIT: James Randi on homeopathy:

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I don't see much that's depressing, just people that, regardless of not taking homeopathy seriously, aren't that much amused at the commercial medical industry or someone acting in a patronizing way with that industry behind him.

Randi pretty much preaches to the choir, and while some may be swayed by his words, these will also sway others to insist on preaching homeopathy's supposed virtues if but to oppose what they see as the preaching of science.

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It does tend to get through that way to those that aren't convinced. For example, when he tells the audience to get a grip on their seats to avoid falling over from laughing, he's assuming they share much of his view of what is reasonable or understandable. When they don't, they'll likely find it insulting and cease to be open to his arguments.

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But 'homeopathy' is nice and profitable which is what really matters.
Maybe if people had an unconditional basic income, there'd be less motive to selfishly con people or do a lot of other evil things often associated with money pursuit. Economics is currently a eat or be eaten jungle.
http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=unconditional+income&btnG=Google+Search

Culture makes people adapt much quicker than slow genetic evolution, so those who don't read/accumulate culture are kind of left behind in the dust and are easier prey to stuff like homeopathy. Someone who believes that must be pretty generally ignorant. Of course there are shitty school systems helping everyone be ignorant though.

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I don't give a damn what stupid people do (or don't do) to their own body. If some doctorphobe wants to drink water to cure cancer then that's just Darwin doing his thing. I DO have a problem with parents that give homeopathic treatments to their children who are otherwise incapable of making better decisions. A homeopathic remedy all too often simply replaces the remedy that's actually needed, and therefore, can actually be severely harmful. THIS is why homeopathy is quite wrong and this is what many people fail to understand.

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AndrewB said:

I DO have a problem with parents that give [insert harmful things] to their children who are otherwise incapable of making better decisions.

Exactly my problem with religion, genital mutilation and a couple other things.

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Surprised there's no anti-science goons going on about how this retraction "proves" science doesn't know what it's doing and is flip-flopping.

Unlike the bible which was RIGHT FIRST TIME, of course.

Also lol homeopathy. Apparently if you dilute something 1/100 12 times, there's unlikely to be even a single molecule of the original solution left, you're diluting water with more water!

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deathbringer said:

Surprised there's no anti-science goons going on about how this retraction "proves" science doesn't know what it's doing and is flip-flopping.

Unlike the bible which was RIGHT FIRST TIME, of course.

Also lol homeopathy. Apparently if you dilute something 1/100 12 times, there's unlikely to be even a single molecule of the original solution left, you're diluting water with more water!

But the vibrations!

"Vibrations" in homeopathy are quite similar to the emanations from God which alchemists believed rang through all matter in the universe and could be tapped to manipulate reality. Same old shit, new disguise, sort of like creation science vs intelligent design.

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I don't get how they account for the molecules coming off the vessels they use to contain an dilute it. That and the air. You'd figure the water would pick up some bad vibes from that. Silly fools.

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