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termrork

DooM2 - Final Boss (pistol only!) 0:37 - UV Tyson

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hah, nice. this looks cool and actually doable, unlike that av jump at the end of pl2 :)

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I panicked when noticing I´m not damaging it and started to shoot everywhere... How should I shoot it? Don´t mind the first minute bs...

ty30fail.zip

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Thank you all :)

@xepop
to hit romero you need :
the correct place: best is at the left or right side
the correct angle
luck, because you don't know where the projectile will arrive

and one another fact is that you probably hit him, but you don't hear the hit-sound, this happens when
a third sound (first is pistol shoot, second is hit-sound of romero)
comes at the same time (e.g. the monster spawner shoots, or a shot of a monster hits you/wall)

for better understanding here a nontas demo which failed too :)

ty30try.zip

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An absolutely sensational discovery. My jaw dropped to the floor when I watched this run, and there's not much left in terms of Doom speedrunning that can make my jaw drop. ;-)

Very nice work, Sir!

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Words can't describe how fantastically awesome this is. The feeling I had while watching this, brought back memories of the first time I saw stx-Vile's MAP07 pacifist run. Doom and speedrunners never cease to amaze me. Even though it is tool-assisted, it is a historical achievement and one of my favorite speedruns. I hope you record some more crazy speedruns in the future.

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This is significant to me because I remember a conversation many years ago amongst some of the leading speedrunners of the time who were considering a method (humanly possible or otherwise) to complete MAP30 under Tyson conditions, and this idea was discussed and dismissed as being outrageous :P It is really fun to see it at long last.

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Cool demo.

A couple years ago on ZDaemon, CBAXZ would use that strategy to kill the romero head on rjspace9f.wad while using the bfg (no bfg-aiming), so I don't see why using the pistol would be any different.

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Apologies for being a bit late to the party, but that's amazing. Trick of the year? Trick of the decade?!

Many congratulations.

And I best that's why mapping genius Sandy Petersen put that ledge there. :p

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So surprising and unexpected... I was not thinking some crazy guys were still trying to do that. Actually, it is a better idea than bringing revenant fireballs into the hole :)

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Yes, much better idea because it actually works!

Probably no one (else!) actually tested it (easy enough to do), and just assumed that no weapon could target the brain from there. Come to think of it, there are some clues in other demos, where the pistol targets things that look out of sight. (I recall that nomo on the ks12 prototype in Gusta's Hell Medley was possible by shooting some out-of-sight barrels in a vaguely similar way.)

Anyway, I'm mainly posting in order to mention that this idea should be useful for taking some time off the TAS and built 30uv runs. Just get the archie boost and BFG the brain from the ledge. How many seconds, I'm not sure, but it's got to be quicker than firing three rockets. Maybe termrork can shed some light on how high the pillar needs to have risen before the archie jump gets you to the ledge. And for an optimal run, you could presumably screw over the PRNG to get two archies to spawn first (only a 1 in 65536 chance if relying on luck, IIRC). Maybe nm30-020 is feasible?!

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If this is such a big deal, I'm really surprised nobody else tested this out. In rjspace, it's easy to bfg jump or plasma jump onto the ledge right where the hole is (CBAXZ would stand in front of the hole on the ledge at an angle and shoot the bfg just like in the demo, and the bfg tracers would hit the romero head down below), but it would be easy to make a test map with a wider ledge or an archvile down below.

Maybe you could use ZDoom and the idmypos command to see how high the lift has to be to get the ledge?

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Maybe you could use ZDoom and the idmypos command to see how high the lift has to be to get the ledge?


Good for an approximation, but you don't want to base exact measures on that. Despite the recent fix to AV jumps in ZDoom, viles still throw you a little bit higher in ZDoom engines than in Doom. I've made a quick test map with sector heights at 64, 66, 68, 70, 72, etc. and there was a few pixels difference between Doom and ZDoom.

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I honestly don't know, but I wonder if zdoom's default air control is the reason for that? (like how you can grab ledges in zdoom)

edit: hmm, I also did a test and was able to jump 79 units in both zdoom241 and prboom-plus but not 80.

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hmm, I also did a test and was able to jump 79 units in both zdoom241 and prboom-plus but not 80.


Could be me not testing properly/long enough, then. I don't remember reaching 79 in either engine, so I had to do it wrong.

Like you say, the discrepancy probably comes from ZDoom air control being smoother, so possibly it's easier to get the max height on ZDoom but the heights would be the same.

I stand corrected then, using ZDoom to check player position would work.

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First of all, yes the AV-boost is much higher in zdoom than with vanilla doom...

Grazza said:

Anyway, I'm mainly posting in order to mention that this idea should be useful for taking some time off the TAS and built 30uv runs. Just get the archie boost and BFG the brain from the ledge. How many seconds, I'm not sure, but it's got to be quicker than firing three rockets. Maybe termrork can shed some light on how high the pillar needs to have risen before the archie jump gets you to the ledge.


The problem is that 1 shot is not enough to pass the lvl, in several tests I needed 3 shots all the time, so it is impossible to beat 30s with 1 Arch-Vile
But there is/should be a way how to go unter 30s:

The first 2 monster who spawn are Arch-Viles, with a double AV-Jump I am high enough to shoot from the "X" into the hole.
With a double jump you can hit Romero 1 time each, with 200/200 + megasphere you can survive 3 double jumps. In UV you have 3 rockets (enough!) and in NM 6 (you can kill the revenand, so it will not annoy you)
Tests showed that 27s is surely doable with this tactic

With a triple AV-jump you can hit him 2 times, so about 22-24s should be possible
IDK if a 4th AV saves time


This idea came up when I had 1 game (the only one since now) after hundreds of tries with 2 AV
Like Grazza said the only chance to do this is to study the source code to calculate where you have to be when that the 1st,2nd.. AV will spawn
So maybe there will be uv30-022, nm30-022, ns30-022 one time :D
I desided to do ty30-037 on TAS first, because it is/was much easier to do :)

thank you all for you comments

Edit:

Phml said:

Make sure you're using the most recent version. This was a long-standing bug that was only recently fixed. Previously, AV jumps would throw you 130-140 units high in ZDoom-based ports.

Thx Phml, you are right
I downloaded the newest version in which the boost is not so high like in 2.2.0.
Hopefully this will be changed in ZDaemon too, so that AV-jump maps
would be playable :)

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First of all, yes the AV-boost is much higher in zdoom than with vanilla doom...


Make sure you're using the most recent version. This was a long-standing bug that was only recently fixed. Previously, AV jumps would throw you 130-140 units high in ZDoom-based ports.

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I remember reading a discussion about Map 30 Tyson-style; maybe that was the same discussion.

Very nice to see it's actually doable!

I was wondering how the player ended up in there with Romero; evidently the "barrel explosions" which normally make for a good visual effect are also quite sufficient to murder anyone in their vicinity too.

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