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Viewtiful-Chris

Copyright in Doom TCs

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You guys seem to be pretty hard up on copyright-infringement violations (as I just viewed in the "how do I put mp3's in wads) thread and other intellectual property breaches, but something mystifies me.

DOOM 64: The Absolution TC (fairly popular work around here) has been quoted by the author as "for those who don't have Nintendo 64 systems". Isn't that blatant theft? Don't get me wrong, I happen to love file-sharing, but I detect a bit of hypocrisy here.

And of course, all those famous, award-winning .WADs (CIF3, for instance) which stole textures / sounds / graphics etc. from other FPS games.

Where's the line drawn here?

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Most of us follow an informal moral code in which copyright infringement is allowable if done as a small part of producing a larger work. If a given project is almost entirely new work, with its own goals and its own artistic direction, then if some resources are "borrowed" to serve the ends of this project then this will probably be forgiven. If, however, a project steals more resources than its artistry can justify the scales tip against it and it is frowned upon.

That's not to say that everyone here is accepting of any copyright infringement, nor is it to say that those who are not accepting of it should be more accepting.

Note also that Kaiser has repentantly released Doom64ex - a port for the purpose of playing Doom 64 on your PC, which can be distributed perfectly legally. (The player still has to break the law by downloaded a Doom 64 .rom somewhere else, but that's not Kaiser's problem.)

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Creaphis said:

(The player still has to break the law by downloaded a Doom 64 .rom somewhere else, but that's not Kaiser's problem.)


Correction, the player has to rip the .rom from their Doom64 cartridge themself, with their own ripping hardware. Don't you know that's how everyone runs their old games through emulators nowadays? 8D

And didn't Doom64 Absolution get "approved" by the makers of Doom64? Kaiser even interviewed them about Doom64, I think.

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And didn't Doom64 Absolution get "approved" by the makers of Doom64?


Really?

Well holy shit wouldn't it then technically be freeware?

I've been having a great time with DOOM 64 both emulated in P64 and in Absolution, although one of my computers doesn't like Doomsday and crashes on startup.

And I wonder if id Software will ever be awesome enough to release all the DOOM engine games as freeware, though that's kinda off-topic. I mean, look at Bethesda. They liberated Elder Scrolls 1 & 2 and all the better for them.

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Viewtiful-Chris said:

And I wonder if id Software will ever be awesome enough to release all the DOOM engine games as freeware


Doubtful, as there's no real need for them to be freeware anyways considering the way PWADs work. I think they also still get a nice penny from Doom/Doom2 sales, enough that freewaring it would be harmful to their profits.

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Indeed, I'm guessing that Bungie made the Marathon games freeware because most current fans are windows users, who can't use old Mac games. But then there is the new Marathon engine AlephOne that works on windows, so there goes that theory. EDIT: Oh, and the old marathon games are for sale on Xbox live... But I guess what customers are buying there are the upgraded sprites and stuff.

But yeah, ID makes big bucks from IWAD sales from their store, Steam, Iphone version, Xbox Arcade version, etc. Maybe in 10 years they'll make it freeware...

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phi108 said:

But yeah, ID makes big bucks from IWAD sales from their store, Steam, Iphone version, Xbox Arcade version, etc. Maybe in 10 years they'll make it freeware...

Not sure the buck is that big. It's certainly a revenue stream that they have no reason to cut off, but it's not going to pay them new Ferraris anymore.

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Why am I mentioned every time the subject 'copyright-infringement' is brought up?

Creaphis said:

(The player still has to break the law by downloaded a Doom 64 .rom somewhere else, but that's not Kaiser's problem.)


There's plenty of ways to obtain a rom legally. You can either purchase the rom from a trusted source (if such a thing exist) OR use a utility (such as Doctor V64) to extract a rom from a cartridge which was what Aaron Seeler once explained to me eons ago.

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Viewtiful-Chris said:

And I wonder if id Software will ever be awesome enough to release all the DOOM engine games as freeware, though that's kinda off-topic. I mean, look at Bethesda. They liberated Elder Scrolls 1 & 2 and all the better for them.


Arena and Daggerfall are not freewares. They're freebies. Not the same thing. As the copyright holder, Bethesda is perfectly in its right to distribute it freely. However, they never gave you the right to redistribute. If for some reason they decided to stop offering these two games for free downloads, any "mirror" still providing them would be warez.

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Viewtiful-Chris said:

DOOM 64: The Absolution TC (fairly popular work around here) has been quoted by the author as "for those who don't have Nintendo 64 systems". Isn't that blatant theft?


How much paint do you have to huff to think it's any kind of theft? Theft is taking without consent; the owner is deprived of his property forever while the thief does as he pleases with it. Something that doesn't physically exist can never be the target of theft. I'm sure at least a few people have stolen Doom 2 discs, but no one has ever stolen DOOM2.WAD.

Doom64EX obsoletes any complaints about copyright infringement as well. It's up to the user to provide the resources, just like with any Doom source port.

Viewtiful-Chris said:

Well holy shit wouldn't it then technically be freeware?


The people who worked on Doom 64 don't own the rights to Doom 64.

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Splatter said:

How much paint do you have to huff to think it's any kind of theft?

Yes, it is not theft or piracy, but simple counterfeit. This doesn't make it more legal, or that much more easily justifiable.

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It's not counterfeit either, unless the person is reproducing what he downloaded and selling it as authentic. There's no reason to call infringement anything other than infringement.

I understand why record companies and the like try to equate it with stealing/counterfeiting/genocide, though; they want to provoke an emotional response that people simply don't feel about downloading songs & games. Not all illegal activities are equally bad, which is why there are different punishments for them, ranging from "death penalty" for war crimes to "none" for listening to Rick Astley on YouTube. On the scale of badosity, piracy is worse than theft is worse than counterfeiting is worse than prank calling is worse than littering is worse than infringement.

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Maybe the attempt by record companies to equate infringement with crimes against humanity is actually an attempt to return to our cultural moral roots. I believe that in some traditional moral interpretations of the Christian old testament's ten commandments, to break any commandment is equally sinful, so, if you say "God damn it" you may as well have just killed someone.

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Personally I think that copyright is an outdated notion that is now only used to perpetuate corporate monopolies and trusts and should thus be abolished, or, at the least, returned to the state in which the founders left it :)

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I think the length of copyright should be reduced. Especially for software; where presumably anything that remains closed source will entirely disappear forever before its copyright expires. 30 years after publication seems more than enough for software; by that time it's utterly obsolesced anyway.

You know what, I think countries should maintain a national library for software, like they do for books. If you want for your copyright to be valid in that country, you'd have to give a copy of the source code to that institution. Which would do nothing with it, just sit on it until the copyright expires and then make it accessible to the public.

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Gez said:

You know what, I think countries should maintain a national library for software, like they do for books. If you want for your copyright to be valid in that country, you'd have to give a copy of the source code to that institution. Which would do nothing with it, just sit on it until the copyright expires and then make it accessible to the public.


That's a really good idea.

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Gez said:

You know what, I think countries should maintain a national library for software, like they do for books. If you want for your copyright to be valid in that country, you'd have to give a copy of the source code to that institution. Which would do nothing with it, just sit on it until the copyright expires and then make it accessible to the public.

Creaphis said:


That's a really good idea.


Seconded. One of the best ideas for software I have ever heard. It should be made an international law, "Gez's Law". I expect plenty of entities would be resistant to it, though, despite the huge advantages it would have.

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Actually, we got a "one issue party" in Sweden that suggested if not the same thing, at least something similar for Sweden a few years ago. They're actually called the "Pirate party".

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This wouldn't be about software piracy, but about preserving works. The software industry is full of short-lived companies and lost source code. It's just an extension of legal deposit.

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Kaiser said:

There's plenty of ways to obtain a rom legally. You can either purchase the rom from a trusted source (if such a thing exist) OR use a utility (such as Doctor V64) to extract a rom from a cartridge which was what Aaron Seeler once explained to me eons ago.


Aaron Seeler of course being the lead programmer on PSXDoom and Doom64. This in itself speaks volumes to me.

Also, I can think of at least one other modder who is probably more guilty of such infractions...

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Quasar said:

Personally I think that copyright is an outdated notion that is now only used to perpetuate corporate monopolies and trusts and should thus be abolished, or, at the least, returned to the state in which the founders left it :)


Hear Hear.

/me pats his Doom64 cart

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Viewtiful-Chris said:
Where's the line drawn here?

One principle is that is rather consistently respected is that one should never use something done by someone within the add-on community without permission. This may seem clannish, but we're peers and have to deal with each other more or less directly, while companies supposedly have their lawyers if they wish to send a cease and desist letter (which has happened on a couple of occasions and will be respected.) Another factor is that creativity and true work, such as by making your own layouts and artwork or working with other community members to cover what you can't do, tends to earn more respect than piddling with bits and pieces found in the back yard.

Quasar said:
Personally I think that copyright is an outdated notion that is now only used to perpetuate corporate monopolies and trusts and should thus be abolished, or, at the least, returned to the state in which the founders left it :)

That doesn't really apply to our community. Just because copyright is used that way, especially when big companies and their million dollar lawyers are involved, doesn't mean it's the only role it plays.

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