Gez Posted March 12, 2010 Are there any mod out there that uses it? It seems a woefully underused Boom feature; apparently people prefer to compose all the switches together in TEXTUREx and play with offsets rather than define brand new switches. 0 Share this post Link to post
esselfortium Posted March 12, 2010 Hmm. Personally I avoid even using ANIMATED whenever I can avoid it, since there's still no convenient way to edit the binary lumps. I have no idea why the Boom team was so against the use of easy-to-edit text lumps for this sort of thing. In any case, it'd be fantastic if Slade3 or another lump editor could implement built-in viewing/creating/editing support for these sorts of lumps, so that custom switches and animations in Boom wads would be as convenient to define as they are in ZDoom and other sourceports that have text-based lumps for them. 0 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted March 12, 2010 esselfortium said:In any case, it'd be fantastic if Slade3 or another lump editor could implement built-in viewing/creating/editing support for these sorts of lumps Why do you think I'm asking for testing material? :) 0 Share this post Link to post
Creaphis Posted March 12, 2010 I think I used both lumps, actually, though it's been a while so I don't fully remember, and I'm not on my home computer so I can't check. I like doing things the "right" way, as in the most advanced and abstracted way that the port compatibility standard allows, even if it has its own inconveniences. 0 Share this post Link to post
Graf Zahl Posted March 12, 2010 Gez said:Are there any mod out there that uses it? New World and New World 2 use this lump. There's a few others but these 2 for certain. 0 Share this post Link to post
esselfortium Posted March 12, 2010 Gez: Oh, wow; fantastic :D What does ZDoom do to specify "decals allowed" in the ANIMATED lump? I ask partially because I'm wondering whether it conflicts with SMMU/Eternity's use of speed=65535 to specify a warping flat. 0 Share this post Link to post
Quasar Posted March 12, 2010 esselfortium said:Gez: Oh, wow; fantastic :D What does ZDoom do to specify "decals allowed" in the ANIMATED lump? I ask partially because I'm wondering whether it conflicts with SMMU/Eternity's use of speed=65535 to specify a warping flat. I can almost guarantee you it does. 0 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted March 12, 2010 Thanks for the test samples. esselfortium said:Gez: Oh, wow; fantastic :D What does ZDoom do to specify "decals allowed" in the ANIMATED lump? I ask partially because I'm wondering whether it conflicts with SMMU/Eternity's use of speed=65535 to specify a warping flat. No, it doesn't affect the speed. It uses bit 1 from the type field. So: 0: flat 1: texture 2: flat that allows decals 3: texture that allows decals Good to know about the warping thing. In other words, if I'm not mistaken, to avoid ZDoom-esque definitions to cause problems in Eternity, you need to make this little change in void P_InitPicAnims(void): from if (animdefs[i].istexture)to animdefs[i].istexture &= 1; if (animdefs[i].istexture) 1 Share this post Link to post
andrewj Posted March 13, 2010 esselfortium said:I have no idea why the Boom team was so against the use of easy-to-edit text lumps for this sort of thing. Today using text lumps is a no-brainer, but way back when Boom was being developed it was not a common thing to do. So I don't think they were against it, just that the idea never occurred to them to do it that way -- they were following the example set by DOOM itself with it's binary lumps. It would be equally unfair to say: why was Carmack so against the use of text lumps (e.g. for TEXTURE1/2). 0 Share this post Link to post
DaniJ Posted March 13, 2010 Gez said:In other words, if I'm not mistaken, to avoid ZDoom-esque definitions to cause problems in Eternity, you need to make this little change in void P_InitPicAnims(void) So yet another standard that is no longer such due to ZDoom. I don't mean to rant but seriously, are the ZDoom devs deliberately going out of their way to nerf cross port compatibility? It certainly seems that way - just look at the change logs for virtually every maintained port and you'll find countless "had to change this cos ZDoom did such and such". I just think its a bit rich to complain about the Boom devs not using text based definitions when ZDoom has since broken the standard that Boom set down. Why didn't ZDoom just use a text definition rather than break the standard? 0 Share this post Link to post
Guest DILDOMASTER666 Posted March 13, 2010 DaniJ said:Why didn't ZDoom just use a text definition rather than break the standard? http://zdoom.org/wiki/ANIMDEFS 0 Share this post Link to post
Graf Zahl Posted March 13, 2010 DaniJ said:So yet another standard that is no longer such due to ZDoom. I don't mean to rant but seriously, are the ZDoom devs deliberately going out of their way to nerf cross port compatibility? It certainly seems that way - just look at the change logs for virtually every maintained port and you'll find countless "had to change this cos ZDoom did such and such". I just think its a bit rich to complain about the Boom devs not using text based definitions when ZDoom has since broken the standard that Boom set down. Why didn't ZDoom just use a text definition rather than break the standard? Keep in mind that this extension is almost as old as ZDoom (to be precise, it was added on 08.01.2002 in v1.23.29.) Also, it doesn't alter anything about properly defined lumps, it just adds an option (which, btw, has been undocumented since its inception and to my knowledge was never ever used by anyone as it's utterly pointless and IMO should better be forgotten than exposed in an editing tool.) Also, the 'nodecals' bit does *NOT* work on flats! This code predates full texture interchangeablility by several years so when it was added there was no reason to do such an option. 0 Share this post Link to post
DaniJ Posted March 13, 2010 Graf Zahl said:Also, it doesn't alter anything about properly defined lumps, it just adds an option (which, btw, has been undocumented since its inception and to my knowledge was never ever used by anyone as it's utterly pointless and IMO should better be forgotten than exposed in an editing tool.) Surely that depends on how each app reads the lump. The standard spec says: "if non zero its a texture" which is no longer correct due to this extension. Any flat marked up as "nodecal" will instead be interpreted as a texture animation pair unless the app is modified. So is this feature now completely depreciated? It seems like Gez is readying to expose it to the world via a Slade mod. From what I've heard I'd suggest not to expose it, given that the only port that supports it has alternative (better) options available to get the same job done. 0 Share this post Link to post
Phml Posted March 13, 2010 Using a giant texture for a switch seems awfully complicated to me ; between having to make the texture from different switches textures in an image manipulation program and then manually adjust the offsets for every single switch I ever make, as compared to running the Boom ANIMATED/SWITCHES thingy once everytime I add switches textures, the latter just seems so much more convenient. 0 Share this post Link to post
Graf Zahl Posted March 13, 2010 DaniJ said:Surely that depends on how each app reads the lump. The standard spec says: "if non zero its a texture" which is no longer correct due to this extension. Any flat marked up as "nodecal" will instead be interpreted as a texture animation pair unless the app is modified. Did you read my post? Value 2 (Flat with decal) is not used by ZDoom. When this feature was added flats couldn't be used on walls. Is this deprecated? Of course it is! The entire lump is considered deprecated concerning ZDoom editing. It should only be used for Boom compatible projects. 0 Share this post Link to post
printz Posted March 13, 2010 I prefer using wide textures with many switches, rather than an extra lump for the same effect. The only problem with this is that the lips of the adjacent switches might show up. 0 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted March 13, 2010 printz said:I prefer using wide textures with many switches Why? It is so much simpler and more elegant to have different textures be different textures. Also in a port such as ZDoom, you can give individual sounds to each switch (in ANIMDEFS, not in ANIMATED) and you can have other nifty effects as well (e.g., animated switches with varying speed and amount of frames); which would only result in clashes and headaches with a single texture. Would you use one single texture for everything else? You could define a giant texture texture and just use offsets; cutting linedefs so as to create the tiling manually. It would make just as much sense IMO. 0 Share this post Link to post
esselfortium Posted March 13, 2010 I don't think that's a particularly fair comparison. Switches are typically not tiled, it's not uncommon for them to be built into their own 32x32 or 24x24 sector for detailing's sake anyway, and it's pretty rare that anything other than the standard two-frame switch with the default sound is used. It takes practically zero extra effort to just offset the texture 32 units or whatever. 0 Share this post Link to post
printz Posted March 13, 2010 Gez said:Why? I strictly meant SWITCHES, which requires me having a DEFSWANI.DAT and SWANTBLS.EXE, and run that at the command line. 0 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted March 30, 2010 Creaphis said:I think I used both lumps, actually, though it's been a while so I don't fully remember, and I'm not on my home computer so I can't check. Just in time to miss the beta 3, here's the output of a feature I've just added to SLADE3: // ANIMDEFS lump generated by SLADE3 Flat Optional NUKAGE1 Range NUKAGE3 Tics 8 Flat Optional FWATER1 Range FWATER4 Tics 8 Flat Optional SWATER1 Range SWATER4 Tics 8 Flat Optional LAVA1 Range LAVA4 Tics 8 Flat Optional BLOOD1 Range BLOOD3 Tics 8 Flat Optional RROCK05 Range RROCK08 Tics 8 Flat Optional SLIME01 Range SLIME04 Tics 8 Flat Optional SLIME05 Range SLIME08 Tics 8 Flat Optional SLIME09 Range SLIME12 Tics 8 Flat Optional FLTSLUD1 Range FLTSLUD3 Tics 24 Flat Optional FSTSLUD1 Range FSTSLUD3 Tics 8 Flat Optional FLTBLUD1 Range FLTBLUD3 Tics 24 Texture Optional BLODGR1 Range BLODGR4 Tics 8 Texture Optional SLADRIP1 Range SLADRIP3 Tics 8 Texture Optional BLODRIP1 Range BLODRIP4 Tics 8 Texture Optional FIREWALA Range FIREWALL Tics 8 Texture Optional GSTFONT1 Range GSTFONT3 Tics 8 Texture Optional FIRELAV3 Range FIRELAVA Tics 8 Texture Optional FIREMAG1 Range FIREMAG3 Tics 8 Texture Optional FIREBLU1 Range FIREBLU2 Tics 8 Texture Optional ROCKRED1 Range ROCKRED3 Tics 8 Texture Optional BFALL1 Range BFALL4 Tics 8 Texture Optional SFALL1 Range SFALL4 Tics 8 Texture Optional WFALL1 Range WFALL4 Tics 8 Texture Optional DBRAIN1 Range DBRAIN4 Tics 8 Texture Optional wfall1 Range wfall4 Tics 8 Texture Optional acandl01 Range acandl03 Tics 8 Texture Optional deadguy1 Range deadguy2 Tics 8 Texture Optional BLOOD1 Range BLOOD3 Tics 8 Texture Optional PATSLUD1 Range PATSLUD3 Tics 8 Switch Doom 1 SW1BRCOM On Pic SW2BRCOM Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1BRN1 On Pic SW2BRN1 Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1BRN2 On Pic SW2BRN2 Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1BRNGN On Pic SW2BRNGN Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1BROWN On Pic SW2BROWN Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1COMM On Pic SW2COMM Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1COMP On Pic SW2COMP Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1DIRT On Pic SW2DIRT Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1EXIT On Pic SW2EXIT Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1GRAY On Pic SW2GRAY Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1GRAY1 On Pic SW2GRAY1 Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1METAL On Pic SW2METAL Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1PIPE On Pic SW2PIPE Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1SLAD On Pic SW2SLAD Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1STARG On Pic SW2STARG Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1STON1 On Pic SW2STON1 Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1STON2 On Pic SW2STON2 Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1STONE On Pic SW2STONE Tics 0 Switch Doom 1 SW1STRTN On Pic SW2STRTN Tics 0 Switch Doom 2 SW1BLUE On Pic SW2BLUE Tics 0 Switch Doom 2 SW1CMT On Pic SW2CMT Tics 0 Switch Doom 2 SW1GARG On Pic SW2GARG Tics 0 Switch Doom 2 SW1GSTON On Pic SW2GSTON Tics 0 Switch Doom 2 SW1HOT On Pic SW2HOT Tics 0 Switch Doom 2 SW1LION On Pic SW2LION Tics 0 Switch Doom 2 SW1SATYR On Pic SW2SATYR Tics 0 Switch Doom 2 SW1SKIN On Pic SW2SKIN Tics 0 Switch Doom 2 SW1VINE On Pic SW2VINE Tics 0 Switch Doom 2 SW1WOOD On Pic SW2WOOD Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1PANEL On Pic SW2PANEL Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1ROCK On Pic SW2ROCK Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1MET2 On Pic SW2MET2 Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1WDMET On Pic SW2WDMET Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1BRIK On Pic SW2BRIK Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1MOD1 On Pic SW2MOD1 Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1ZIM On Pic SW2ZIM Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1STON6 On Pic SW2STON6 Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1TEK On Pic SW2TEK Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1MARB On Pic SW2MARB Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 SW1SKULL On Pic SW2SKULL Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 sw1goth1 On Pic sw2goth1 Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 sw1goth2 On Pic sw2goth2 Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 adel_gs2 On Pic adel_gs1 Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 ADEL_RS2 On Pic ADEL_RS1 Tics 0 Switch Doom 3 3ODESWV2 On Pic 3ODESWV1 Tics 0 0 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted April 1, 2010 And actually, since beta3 was re-released, you can try the converter. Just select a bunch of lumps which hopefully include at least one switches or animated lump, right-click, and pick the "convert" option. :) 0 Share this post Link to post