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General Rainbow Bacon

Hardest doom wad?

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rjsloth11, hands down. but i'm not really helping your cause :)

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You could try nochance by deathxdestiny, but there aren't any UV maxes for it. GGGmork got close though. Also you could check out eaxt by erik alm, which nochance was styled after. Map07 of titan2 is also pretty hard, although I've heard it gets manageable if you can figure out a strategy. Shameless plug - SL map30 is kinda hard ;). For extremely grueling, you could also go for insane_gazebo's sunder, every one of them besides the first takes some doing (1 is merely 'hard' ;). It's not released yet but it'd be pretty easy to find in wads/mods. You could also check out some of phml's maps, they're a bit tougher than mine though a bit more speedrunny and harder to find a path on the first playthrough. And then any of the random stuff gggmork posts is pretty surreal and difficult, although he doesn't texture anything cause he says he sucks at it. Timeofdeath (who made rjsloth11 right? he made some other rj maps too ...) makes some random maps that are rather difficult to follow outside an editor but they're pretty difficult too.

Besides the recent ones and titan/eaxt/nochance, you've probably checked the scythes and AV, so kama sutra could be interesting, kind of got the HR vibe to it. I hear memento mori 1/2 are up there but I haven't gotten around to playing them yet.

And that big post there's what I remember. Yep. *munches on straw*

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I should also mention that I want to do ones that haven't yet been done. btw, I will make the demos using Fraps. I don't know how to make lmps. I have played many of these already too, I just need some direction on which ones you guys think would make the coolest vids, Sunder is too insane though.

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Then forget nochance, it takes about as long (and 3x as much) as one of the medium levels in sunder. If you could take the mediocrity of SL I think some of the later maps would be interesting (and I'd be interested! ;), plus there's only a few demos for them, mostly on maps 28 and 29 (there's a youtube vid of 21 but I don't like that map too much. Yeah I know it's my own map -.-).

On the subject of lmps, it's pretty easy to do a (pr)boom(+) demo, just use something like this on the command line;

C:\Users\Blood_Titan\Desktop\doom stuff\prboom-plus-2.5.0.5\prboom-plus.exe -file 42_1024maps.wad -skill 4 -warp 03 -complevel 9 -record 42-1024M3

Then play it back while recording with your recording program. Okuplok plays it back on glboom and imo it works out well.

If you need another reference check this thread.

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@ArmouredBlood : Thanks for the info. BTW, I wrote on WIP that I think map 4 of your new set is cool for speedrunning. If you like hard maps too, try my level that I released last week if you haven't already. It's called "1000 Unheard Screams". It's not getting good reviews though. It's very hard on UV. I think you need zdoom to play it though because of the new monsters.

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Yeah I tried playing your map in gzdoom (1.4.1), but it had 5 things that killed the good ideas you did have.

1. Inescapable pits. These are not fun. It's too much like real life.

2. the puzzle room that you can't go through wrong or you're teleported into a dark box with a damaging floor. Just teleport the player back to the beginning, maybe spawning some random monster behind them.

3. The redbrick lava maze. There's a reason there's only 2 or 3 damaging floor mazes in doom1 and none in doom2. I spent a lot of time going around in there in godmode and couldn't find out how to get out. Finally I said f it and noclipped out without figuring out how to snag the bfg.

4. Not enough firepower to get through the map. It's extremely tedious to try to take down everything with the shotty, adding a rocket launcher pretty early would be nice. And stop using barons like they were hell knights, that extra health goes a long way in stopping forward progress, much less staying alive.

5. And then there are the custom monsters ... I don't know the special PE nor the cyb that moves 2x as fast and shoots spread plasma AND spread rockets, but I did mess around with the thamuz a little once and I'd rate it as hard or harder than a spidermastermind, except they don't infight each other. And in the gigantic hallway you put like 20 of them in, with assorted other monsters, including the PEs. vs. BFG with a few soul spheres and mega-armors. Uh yeah, that's not gonna work.

Now it's not all bad - I thought some of the architecture was pretty interesting, although it could use some polish. And some fights, like the part you get the rocket launcher at and there's a cyb and some barons, felt decently balanced. Just try to lay off the barons next time. And why aren't you mapping for doom2? This map would fit doom2 a lot more than doom1, plus there're more vanilla monster options.

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I am mapping for doom 2... now And I'll fix some of those things and reupload it once the changes are done. Probably gonna take out some of the crazy monsters. What do you suggest I do with the red brick maze though?

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I'd scrap most of the walls and keep maybe a few on the edges to hide monsters behind and have a nice arena-style fight on a spit of ash in the middle of a lava lake, but that's just me.

It's not so much using the crazy monsters as how you overused them(read:overwhelmed the player). I doubt you seriously playtested farther than the rocket launcher, if that, and you would've noticed how badly balanced the fights at the end are if you had.

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I actually playtested all the way into the last room. But, I know where everything is, and i guess it was a little unfair that I thought everyone would do as well as the man who made it. Also, in glboom, where does the recorded demo go?

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Sunder needs more demos - specifically .lmp files, please ! Youtube quality doesn't do the wad justice. :)

Two other good hard wads missing demos are Baker's Dozen and Hell Ground (bd.wad, hg.wad) by Eternall. Granted, the difficulty in these two comes mostly from the length of the maps rather than the strength of the opposition.

There's also thespire and thespir2 (the only demos recorded are in old zdoom versions).

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At the risk of self-promotion, I designed Astican to be especially difficult.

It has not been well-received by the community, averaging only two and a half stars, but I still stand behind it, for the most part. Four people left unequivocally positive reviews.

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There was a WAD made for 32 in 24 where a guy screwed up and made a single player level instead of a multiplayer level. Was pretty fun, forgot who the guy was but I got a demo.

Ah yes, Doom Marine...

http://sites.google.com/site/ghostlydeath/beatyermapdoommarine.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

I should find that map whatever it was...

It was a challenge but it was fun, took a while to beat it however.

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While not the hardest, PsychoPhobia can be quite challenging. Former Humans randomly drop ammo / weapons when killed so getting a shotgun from a ShotgunGuy is occasional. When you do get it, it can be a blessing.

However, the levels can be rather lengthy. The first one usually takes me about 40 minutes to complete.

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If people make hard maps, I think it'd be nice if they included demos with them. Plus, if people complain that it's too hard or unplayable or something, you can just say "lols watch the demos". So why not start with recording demos on your maps?

lols rjsloth, there's still no map06 demo or a rocket-only demo on map10.

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It's possible to make a great hard map without necessarily having the skills or the willingness to spend time to record entertaining demos on it.

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Phml said:

It's possible to make a great hard map without necessarily having the skills or the willingness to spend time to record entertaining demos on it.


Why? All you have to do is record a demo when you do a final playtest of your map. If you can't even beat your map, how can you balance the difficulty of the encounters to be interesting for a good player?

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Beating a map and being able to make an entertaining demo for it are two very different things. Most maps, even hard ones, can be beat by playing very slowly, but not many people enjoy watching 1 hour of Doomguy peeking from behind a corner every now and then to take a few shots.


For the sake of conversation, let's assume we're talking about a map that the author can't beat in one go (which isn't related to the point I was previously making, but I'm claiming that new point as mine now).

It's rare you've got every monster at the same spot, in the same fight. You can test individual fights / rooms / groups of rooms and be able to beat these without necessarily being able to beat the whole map in one go. Additionally, there's really no difference in testing efficiency between beating a map in one go or having to use saves - provided you don't use a ludicrous amount of saves, of course.

To craft interesting encounters, there's much more complicated factors at work than "can I myself beat the map or not". In fact, I'd go as far as to say being able to beat your own map isn't particulary relevant, when looking at the big picture. At best, it can be a shortcut, at worst, it can become a drawback (a skilled player can overlook flaws in his work because he assumes since he can beat his map, that means everything is ok). What's important is understanding how the game works, how monsters, items and architecture interact in every particular fight, and so on.

There's no need to be a doomgod, you only need enough skill to be able to realistically evaluate what's possible or not, what's interesting or not. We're talking about knowledge rather than twitch skills here. Much like you can be a talented sports commenter without having ever been a pro athlete, you can make hard maps without being a doomgod.


Don't take my word for it, though : check out nochance and eaxt. While the authors haven't directly said they aren't able to beat these maps on UV in one run, it's heavily implied they didn't. You're, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but I consider these three maps to be some of the finest hard wads out there.

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I'm not sure if your comments are in response to mine, but I do admit I have said some stuff in the past that probably sounded kinda mean about the authors of hard maps, so I apologize.

Regarding demos, I just think it's nice when authors include demos of their maps (especially if they're hard or confusing or whatevever), so that players don't have to learn the maps all from scratch.

Since DoomHero is asking about the hardest doom wad, I think it'd be nice if he'd record a demo on his maps, considering the description of 1000 Unheard Screams. :)

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Phml said:

long post


Thanks for the explanation. :) For the record, Erik Alm is my favorite mapper, and I have no problems with eaxt. :P

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I'm not sure if your comments are in response to mine, but I do admit I have said some stuff in the past that probably sounded kinda mean about the authors of hard maps, so I apologize.

Regarding demos, I just think it's nice when authors include demos of their maps (especially if they're hard or confusing or whatevever), so that players don't have to learn the maps all from scratch.


My first reply/sentence was intended to answer your question, my second long reply was directed to Spleen's comment.

No hard feelings here, I've got nothing but respect for you both as a player and a mapper ; and while I don't know Spleen, I don't have any hostility towards him either (I do realise my above reply might seem a bit aggressive and I apologize for that, it's hard to convey tone on text and I phrased things poorly). I also agree with your reasoning, it is nice when demos are provided with hard maps.

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Phml said:

stuff


This is me. When I make maps that I can beat passably in the first few runs, they're not especially interesting, especially to the people who like running them like phml and gggmork. Take newgothic versus SL, which I plug a lot cause I know them ;) I could beat every map in SL excepting map30 relatively consistently if I played carefully, versus some maps in newgothic being pretty difficult for me to do - in fact I STILL haven't beaten map12, although I haven't seriously tried. I just don't have the skill, although I like to think it's only by a little bit ;p

In the end though I know newgothic is more interesting to the audience I want despite not being able to really compete in it.

On the front of giving demos to explain how the map goes, my maps are not especially confusing, being quite linear, so I don't believe they really need demos. Sure strange ones like 9 and the teleports in 8 could use some more explaining but it's nothing more than a run or two of experimentation can't tell you.

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GhostlyDeath said:

There was a WAD made for 32 in 24 where a guy screwed up and made a single player level instead of a multiplayer level.


It's Doom_Marine, map is MAP46 (if i don't going wrong, whatever is the last level of the whole mapack) and the file is this:

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=15251

EDIT: Nuts.wad and Calisas.wad, also it could be already quoted :P

oh, btw i suggest hell reveled 2.

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^ Looks like a fun map, unfortunately I can't get it to run in PRBoom+ (played in GZDoom).

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