Fastest OpenGL source port engine for WADS?

[Ralphis]

Let's turn it into an Odamex thread instead, we could always use quality help!

Also except for some sync issues I still believe Odamex has the best 1on1/FFA at the very least when it comes to latency. Odamex also does a bunch of other stuff that the other two probably will never do, such as on-the-fly wad loading (so you can have servers with literally hundreds of maps), wad downloading (needs optimization but it exists), and other nifty stuff.

If everyone approached such matters with apathy because it's "reinventing the wheel", ports like ZDoom (or to take the example even further, ZDaemon, Skulltag, and Odamex from csdoom) probably wouldn't have come to fruition to begin with :)

[Whoo]

Odamex on top.

[Spleen]

Ralphis said:

If everyone approached such matters with apathy because it's "reinventing the wheel", ports like ZDoom ... probably wouldn't have come to fruition to begin with :)

How was ZDoom originally reinventing the wheel? I think it was one of the first Windows DOOM ports, based on ATBDoom/NTDoom, when those were discontinued. Thus, it was a pioneer in some sense (analogous to someone picking up GZDoom to keep improving the GL code, and renaming it right now, if I am not mistaken; and analogous to how entryway picked up PRBoom to keep improving it, whilst renaming it to PRBoom+). Correct me if I am wrong please: I am not a DOOM source port history expert, I would just like some elaboration on that assertion.

[Ralphis]

Truth be told, it was a bit of a blanket statement and I wasn't being entirely literal when I referenced ZDoom specifically. However, related to ZDoom, lots of other engines DID have a lot of stuff that took ZDoom years to get (look at Vavoom for example which has had slopes/3d floors/client server netcode/ogl/etc since the earlier part of the decade). Yet, instead of other authors taking up Vavoom and forking the code and continuing to improve what was arguably the most advanced doom port by far, engines like ZDoom, EE, and others remained in the past and it took years to catch up in some aspects.

I guess what I'm saying is that, "reinventing the wheel" if you want to call it that, isn't always necessarily a bad thing. You may be rewarded the opportunity to look at what others have done already and devise improvements from the get go instead of having to go back and retool something that already exists.

[DuckReconMajor]

Ralphis said:

such as on-the-fly wad loading (so you can have servers with literally hundreds of maps)

This sounded cool until I imagined days of sitting in front of GetWAD while I try to connect to a server.

Ralphis said:

wad downloading (needs optimization but it exists),

nvm excited again

[Mr. T]

Downloading maps from a server is only a feature that has existed since like, 1998

[DuckReconMajor]

then why are we like, still downloading like, wads like, before we can, like, play on a server?

[Mr. T]

I think I should've said "standard FPS feature"

[Ralphis]

and yet only one of the three major multiplayer engines does it!

Odamex: Setting The Standard in Online Doom Multiplayer

[zap610]

Doesn't SRB2 do it too?

EDIT: Er nvm, it downloads them but won't let you switch the wads ingame.

[kristus]

Odamex on TOP!

@Zap: I dunno how it deals with it on servers. But Legacy has had dynamic wad loading for a long time, which is what SRB2 is based on.

[Mr. T]

It's a feature that should be in all ports. Quakeworld had it... and that's how old?!

[WH-Wilou84]

SoulPriestess said:
And let's not forget, ZDaemon. As a Skulltag admin, the chief complaint I hear about ZDaemon is that there's nothing but botters now.

Well, I'm sorry, but this is plain over-exaggerating.
Been playing on this port for several years, and indeed, cheaters were quite a plague two years ago. It's not that they were many, just a few of them who'd came and ruin every single game. But this is over now, in Europe at least, they mostly got dealt with ( one of them still remains though :/ ).

Skulltag's "best" european clan now is OneShot', and some of those guys are also very good ZDaemon players. If ZDaemon was all about cheating, those guys wouldn't really stand a chance on Skulltag, without their cheats, right ?
Same goes for me, I'm an average player on ZD, I get kicked in first rounds from every tourney, yet, when I come and play some duels on Skulltag, sometimes I beat people quite badly and they accuse me of cheating.
It's easy to accuse someone of cheating when you just can't beat them :o
And it's easy as well to say that ZDaemon is full of cheaters, following the same principle.

I assume the complaints you hear come from frustrated ST players rather than players who play both ports.
I believe Metalhead still plays ZDaemon tourneys, so maybe she can put her word here too, as I only speak for the Euro scene.

Yet you're right, this situation would probably be worse if ports were open-source.
[/ZDaemon offtopic]

A shame to see that Graf Zahl resigned. Even if I don't share his views on everything, I highly respect the man for all the hard work he put in both ZDoom and GZDoom. Good luck with the fork, guys.

[wolf]

when i play new level on gzdoom,engine lower my brightness.. only in open_gl,excample: i playing map1 going to map2 & engine lower level of brihtness

[myk]

SoulPriestess said:
I disagree with you fraggle, and I think you're acting like even more of a dickhead than Graf did. Is that how you become a moderator here? This is why I rarely come to DoomWorld in the first place.

I gather you do agree with him, but that you don't agree with him saying those things because they hurt. And he said them because it hurt him to see a respected fellow coder go.

When you ask too much of someone, what you often get is nothing.

John Smith said:
See, here's the thing, like I said, if you think you need to carry around a brash and abrasive attitude, you're going to, and deserve to, get as well as you give.

I've seen you get abrasive. Does this statement make you a masochist? Never mind AlexMax, for example. Just looking at some of the posts he made on this thread might be enough to make him "deserve" to suffer a week of ridicule in the Losers forum. But in reality, smart people can measure this abrasiveness against other factors in the person's merits and personality. After all, it's a matter of self-interest. Saying "I'd rather have no more code from Graf Zahl than any more of his abrasiveness" doesn't really compute, if you ask me. It's delusional.

The code is buggy, it's Graf's fault.
Graf isn't fixing it and he's a bitch, it's his fault.
Graf left, it's his fault!

Fault is a pretty subjective thing. If what matters to one is keeping Graf's fine code, having the social skills to convince him to provide more of it is much better than having the "skills" to manage to get him to leave.

Xenaero said:
Feel free to prove me wrong.

In all these years, I don't think I've seen flames against Graf Zahl here like those in that ST thread Gez linked to, and most of the people saying them tend to post here too, so the difference seems to be in how the communities tolerate that treatment. To name an example, when Alter talks like he did there over here, even against less prominent people, he often gets some attention from mods. Perhaps it's like Gez says, or maybe it's just that it's considered more normal for people to behave like fucked up teenagers (can't find better words) in the Skulltag forums than it is here. You tell me.

[dew]

SoulPriestess said:

I disagree with you fraggle, and I think you're acting like even more of a dickhead than Graf did. Is that how you become a moderator here? This is why I rarely come to DoomWorld in the first place.

And let's not forget, ZDaemon. As a Skulltag admin, the chief complaint I hear about ZDaemon is that there's nothing but botters now. And I have seen this for myself - it's why I don't play ZDaemon at all anymore.

baseless accusations and sore attitude without ANY first hand experience. and that's why you should stay in your la-la land where you're the queen of everything you overlook.

[Solarn]

LOL DOOM IS SRS BSNS

I do like GZDoom though and I'm sad to hear of Graf Zahl abandoning it.

[Belial]

Heh, thanks for reminding me about ZDaemon, I visit for the first time in two years and the first thing I notice is that my old clan apparently got resurrected a week ago after the same two years.

[Csonicgo]

dew said:

baseless accusations and sore attitude without ANY first hand experience. and that's why you should stay in your la-la land where you're the queen of everything you overlook.

First-hand experience of what? a male? After forking over her own money to host skulltag, drdteam forums, and GZDoom?

Blatantly misogynist! I'm sick of this.

It's just like this every time a woman in any gaming community has power over anything. From CS forums...

Most often the man earns the money for the family or at least more than his wife, but there are cases in which the woman earns more than her husband. At least that's how I see things and IMO girls shouldn't play games. Not only CS, but all kinds of games.

to Skulltag forums:
Video removed by request.

This is a huge problem in the Skulltag/young gaming community and I'm quite sick of it. GROW UP. I didn't expect this from a poster such as dew, but I am rapidly losing respect for a lot of people this week. So, Just keep flinging shit and blaming women for your problems OK?

dew said:

it's like raaaaiiaaaain on your wedding day...

[X] carnevil
[X] xenaero
[X] graf zahl
[ ] other people with penises and opinions

Looks like you're off to a good start on that, too!

[dew]

first hand experience of zdaemon's player base or doomworld's hierarchy. jumping to conclusions about moderation of doomworld and fraggle based on a few heated posts in this thread while having an attitude herself. accusing zdaemon's player base of being consisted of mostly cheaters based on hearsay from godknowswho. it looks like a bunch of skulltag advocates supporting their cause by aggressive means - that's why there's the strong opposite reaction, imo.
but i shouldn't be even posting in this thread, it's not my fight at all. i apologize for the lame joke in my first post.

[Spleen]

Csonicgo said:

This is a huge problem in the Skulltag/young gaming community and I'm quite sick of it. GROW UP.

Heh, how can you expect everyone to act grown-up when there is a continuous influx of young individuals? They're immature by definition. On the other hand, the community acting too mature shows everyone that we're all old farts (I absolutely don't mean that in an offensive way). I'm probably above-average in terms of age in the Skulltag community, but I'm probably below-average here. :P

[neubejiita]

How has a simple question about the best source port for OpenGL play of wad-files descended into such mud-slinging by trolls who have plenty to say about GZdoom but do not want to contribute? What is going on these days in the Doom community, are we going to tear ourselves apart from the inside and cease to be the awesome community we used to be?

We need to stop fighting and try and resolve this somehow, this is getting out of hand.

[Solarn]

Spleen said:

Heh, how can you expect everyone to act grown-up when there is a continuous influx of young individuals? They're immature by definition. On the other hand, the community acting too mature shows everyone that we're all old farts (I absolutely don't mean that in an offensive way). I'm probably above-average in terms of age in the Skulltag community, but I'm probably below-average here. :P

Too mature = What? Since when has maturity become a bad thing?

[scalliano]

Since the rise of the Internet, apparently.

[Mr. T]

Playing grown ups is bad when it makes you give a fuck about things people say on the internet... drama like this happen and the trolls have a laugh.

It also seems to make people take themselves VERY SERIOUSLY and say bad things about DW mods and alternative ports - could you do us a favor and die, please?

[LexiMax]

myk said:

I've seen you get abrasive. Does this statement make you a masochist? Never mind AlexMax, for example. Just looking at some of the posts he made on this thread might be enough to make him "deserve" to suffer a week of ridicule in the Losers forum. But in reality, smart people can measure this abrasiveness against other factors in the person's merits and personality. After all, it's a matter of self-interest. Saying "I'd rather have no more code from Graf Zahl than any more of his abrasiveness" doesn't really compute, if you ask me. It's delusional.

Apparently, there's no room in this discussion for a middle ground, you're in a conspiracy against Graf Zahl (and by extension the entire doom community) by "trolling" him, or you must lay your undying praise upon him. No middle ground allowed!

Also, It's apparently easier to create a strawman out of me and attack that then actually have a real conversation. I have repeated my actual position several times over the course of this thread, and I'm very disappointed to see myk representing my position so staggeringly incorrectly, not to mention fraggle trying to equivocate mean words on the internet to rape, in any context.

And the funniest part? One of the supposed Skulltaggers that seems to be targeted by people in this thread is actually one of the people who will continue to maintain GZDoom in Graf's absence, and has been taking money out of her pocket to host it for a very long time now. For my part I would like to thank SoulPriestess for taking all of this undue abuse in stride.

But hey, since offensive analogies is what passes for acceptable discourse around here, here's my attempt at one. Just because a boyfriend buys their significant other nice things does not give him the right to drunkenly verbally abuse her at night. And incidentally, threatening to leave is one of an abusive boyfriends favorite tactics.

[Xenaero]

myk said:

In all these years, I don't think I've seen flames against Graf Zahl here like those in that ST thread Gez linked to, and most of the people saying them tend to post here too, so the difference seems to be in how the communities tolerate that treatment. To name an example, when Alter talks like he did there over here, even against less prominent people, he often gets some attention from mods. Perhaps it's like Gez says, or maybe it's just that it's considered more normal for people to behave like fucked up teenagers (can't find better words) in the Skulltag forums than it is here. You tell me.

That's not to say people haven't gotten attention from the Skulltag team over on the horrible Skulltag forums, it's just less apparent, due to a more behind-the-curtain moderation style that was taking place at the time. That's just in general, though.

Let's look at the first page (That's what everyone mostly saw, so it's a good starting point) of the thread, for example! I see negative comments from the topic poster, Whoo and Alter. The rest of them are technical discussions and from what I see, sensible debates.

While here, you have individuals who are also shitting up this very thread not unlike Alter did in the Skulltag thread linked by Gez. I'm sorry you let one individual paint an entire community. Speaking of...

Csonicgo said:

First-hand experience of what? a male? After forking over her own money to host skulltag, drdteam forums, and GZDoom?

Blatantly misogynist! I'm sick of this.

It's just like this every time a woman in any gaming community has power over anything. From CS forums...

Haha what the fuck is this? Although you're not a multiplayer-based Doomer I would have expected you'd have gotten the point behind Dew's post. He was implying SP had no experience in ZDaemon and how gaming has progressed in that potion of the Doom community, where it's fairly obvious that it's been closed source for a long while and even still there are botters. That's where his post stems from. SP herself did not seem aware of this several posts back. See: The second part of Alex's post.

Only at the end of your rant did I get the reasoning behind the whole post. This had absolutely nothing to do with the current topic. But like I told myk, be sure to paint the community like that. But while you focus on the extremes and negatives, you probably might have known that the users behind stuff like that youtube you so generously linked to prove a point were barred several times from participating in the Skulltag community. But you know, they tolerate immature teenage shitheads. Now, hopefully we're done with that topic.

Honestly, I don't think the source being protected matters a whole lot as far as Skulltag and hack development goes. There just aren't a great influx of people with the motivation or knowledge to generate exploits like there were back on ZDaemon when it exploded as the popular competitive port. Skulltag does not have this competitive luster, and as such not only does not carry to general attitude of the competitive community, but also does not have the same risks associated with competitive play. Yet. So it might be this that gives rise to the illusion that closing the source helps more than hurts in the long run. That's the way I've seen it. Also, since the lull of general competitive play on ZDaemon in recent years, there have also been a lull in cheats floating around. As a player of both ports I believe these are directly related to each other, but don't take my word for it.

Either way, it's kind of gotten off track of the GZDoom discussion. When did it turn from GZDoom to Skulltag? Is it because Skulltag is pretty much a multiplayer GZDoom? Or do people just want to slam on Skulltag by proxy for obviously causing the departure of the developer of GZDoom?! I dunno, but what I'm wondering is if the GZDoom code will be stripped out of Skulltag and replaced with the fork project's. Alex has told me that it's not possible due to a license change, so I'm assuming ST uses an old version of GZDoom's renderer that predated that?

[Gez]

GZDoom SVN updates have resumed. Crisis over.

Xenaero said:

I dunno, but what I'm wondering is if the GZDoom code will be stripped out of Skulltag and replaced with the fork project's. Alex has told me that it's not possible due to a license change, so I'm assuming ST uses an old version of GZDoom's renderer that predated that?

The fork, if it continues (does not really have a reason to do so anymore), could only change the license to make it closed-source-friendly with the agreement of the original licensor. You can't relicense someone else's work. So unless the fork goes back to r127 (+bugfixes up to r323)... And that would be very pointless.

[GreyGhost]

AlexMax said:

Apparently, there's no room in this discussion for a middle ground, you're in a conspiracy against Graf Zahl (and by extension the entire doom community) by "trolling" him, or you must lay your undying praise upon him. No middle ground allowed!

When a "discussion" becomes as polarized as this one, what middle ground there was becomes no-man's land and anyone who's there is fair game. Good luck and keep your head down.

[Quasar]

I think maybe what people are missing here is the difference between simply not liking someone because of their character flaws, and publicly attacking them at every opportunity because of that.

The first is perfectly fine; everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

The second is immature and trollish. It's no different from what school-age bullies do. Prodding people to get a reaction and to get admiration from the other people who feel the same way but aren't brave enough to do their own dirty work.

Like I said earlier, playground mentalities.

Personally if I really don't like somebody, I just stay away from them and don't give any heed to what they say, unless it becomes a personal attack on myself. I don't wage a forum jihad against them and try to rebut every post they make.