Monsters in Secret Areas

[Lutz]

I'm looking for opinions on the use of monsters in secret areas. On one hand, not all secrets should be gimmies, but then again, there are those that think you should be able to rack up 100% kills without finding every secret.

Alternatively, there are some middle ground options:
1) Add windows to the secret area such that the player to fire into the secret area from outside (and kill the beasties);
2) Shortly before the player exits, add trigger lines that activate crushers in the secret areas to kill any lurking monsters;
3) If monsters warp in to the secret, add a second set of warp lines/triggers later in the level so that monsters can warp to a second (non-secret) area if the player misses the secret.

So -- what do YOU think? Also, are there any other means by which monsters in secret areas can be killed?

[kristus]

I think that if you make a point out of racking up 100¤ kills. Then you should go for Secrets and items as well. But that's me.

[40oz]

Yeah I always wondered about people's opinions on this as well. I usually like to go for 100% kills and I usually disregard secrets and items for that matter. I like your first and third options the best. Not so much the second as it results in the monster's being counted as kills even though the player didn't do anything or even knew that they existed. Also it could trouble in coop if one guy runs ahead while the other is seeking out secret areas.

The way is see it is:

1) The IWADs sometimes put monsters and stuff in the secrets so I guess it's fair.

2) You should definitely put at least 95% of monsters in non-secret areas, so that the player doesn't leave half of the map populated with monsters if they aren't secret hunting.

3) Easy skill levels probably should have no monsters in secrets at all.

4) Lost souls are safe to put in secret areas since they don't affect the kill percentage.

[Lutz]

40oz said:

4) Lost souls are safe to put in secret areas since they don't affect the kill percentage.

Good point, but I'm currently working on a Heretic map (also, I'm trying to keep this a generic discussion).

And for the record, I generally keep my monsters out of secret areas, too. Since I agree with the philosophy that secret items shouldn't be required in order to complete the level, I follow the same logic with monsters.

[Gez]

40oz said:

4) Lost souls are safe to put in secret areas since they don't affect the kill percentage.

Not in all source ports.

Lutz said:

Since I agree with the philosophy that secret items shouldn't be required in order to complete the level, I follow the same logic with monsters.

Generally, killing monsters is not required to complete the level. (Unless some Tag 666 shenanigans are going on, of course.)

To me, putting monsters out of secrets to make sure you can max kills without maxing secrets follows the same logic as making sure none of the secrets contain any item/artifact, to make sure you can max items without maxing secrets...

[kristus]

Lutz said:

And for the record, I generally keep my monsters out of secret areas, too. Since I agree with the philosophy that secret items shouldn't be required in order to complete the level, I follow the same logic with monsters.

I'm gonna play Devil's advocate here a bit. But by that same logic then you shouldn't place "items" in secrets either. Since that is a stat that people could go after as well, and by the same logic it shouldn't be demanded that they find the secrets to get the items stat. Simply because it's not the norm to go after Items alone. You shouldn't assume any different about them as you do monsters.

EDIT: Gez beat me to it.

[Graf Zahl]

I believe that secrets should contain rewards for the player, not punish him. As such I find the attitude of some mappers to place some bigger monsters in secret areas or let them loose when the player finds one rather counterproductive.

Just think about the Baron secret in E4M1. It's the epitome of a pointless secret as you get nothing for finding it, except making the following map even harder to complete.

[Phml]

I believe that secrets should contain rewards for the player, not punish him. As such I find the attitude of some mappers to place some bigger monsters in secret areas or let them loose when the player finds one rather counterproductive.

Agreed.

In addition, missing on fights because I'm bad at secret hunting kind of annoys me.

[printz]

Graf Zahl said:

Just think about the Baron secret in E4M1. It's the epitome of a pointless secret as you get nothing for finding it, except making the following map even harder to complete.

Sounds like a punishment for being too ambitious on secrets. Ultimately it becomes an avoidable level gimmick.

I don't agree on the need-100% kills bullshit. The point of the game is to reach the exit in one piece (or not) and survive to tell the tale, not act like an area exterminator. I don't like when people get discouraged to design open-ended maps just because players won't be able to achieve 100% kills.

[TraderEddy]

[deleted]

[Enjay]

For some people the fight and the 100% kill count is the reward for finding the secret. :)

Personally, I have no problem with monsters being in a secret area but I would not usually put only monsters in a secret area, there should be something else (valuable) in there too. Complimentary to that, however, by finding the secret the player should be better off somehow but that does not preclude having monsters in the secret as well as whatever the benefit is.

Hey, if it is good enough for id... ;)

[Use]

Graf Zahl said:

I believe that secrets should contain rewards for the player, not punish him. As such I find the attitude of some mappers to place some bigger monsters in secret areas or let them loose when the player finds one rather counterproductive.

Just think about the Baron secret in E4M1. It's the epitome of a pointless secret as you get nothing for finding it, except making the following map even harder to complete.

I agree here, a secret area is about a brief respite for the player.

[kristus]

Secret levels are in effect secret areas.

[TraderEddy]

[deleted]

[magicsofa]

Graf Zahl said:

I believe that secrets should contain rewards for the player, not punish him. As such I find the attitude of some mappers to place some bigger monsters in secret areas or let them loose when the player finds one rather counterproductive.

I think this all depends on the kind of secret you are talking about. If it is just a closet with some goodies in it, obviously you would only want a possible imp or something just to keep the player on their toes. However secrets can be used for much more than just items - opening up shortcuts and entirely new areas of the level. For example E1 has a few secrets that let you go outside, and I like that there are zombies rolling around out there. Of course you can shoot them through the window as mentioned in the OP. Anyway I personally like making elaborate secrets that add an actual -area- rather than just an item closet, so in that case I would put enemies in it just like any other area.

[Super Jamie]

I don't mind monsters in secrets. It's a rather old-school trick which you don't see an awful lot these days, but it doesn't turn me off a map in the slightest. I wouldn't bother with windows or crushers or teleports or anything like that.

If you're going for a UV Max then you're going to find them anyway. If you're going for max kills then it's just another monster to find. I definitely wouldn't do crushers cos then there's possibly even no point in even entering the secret.

[Lutz]

This is slightly off topic, but it's my thread: To me, 100% kills is different than 100% item collection, especially in UD when 100% of the items includes every helmet and potion. However, 100% kills implies that the player truly BEAT the level -- I came, I saw, I kicked major ass. Again, though, that's my opinion.

[myk]

Lutz said:
I'm looking for opinions on the use of monsters in secret areas. On one hand, not all secrets should be gimmies, but then again, there are those that think you should be able to rack up 100% kills without finding every secret.

Well, even in the latter case, you would not need to go into every secret, just the ones with monsters. It would only matter for a game discipline where yo must kill all the monsters without registering any of the secrets.

Personally, I think it's fine for some secrets to have monsters, otherwise you're just making players who're not yet fully familiar with a level feel too safe and fortunate every time they find a secret area. If monsters sometimes appear in them, players are kept more on their toes as they go. Besides, adding monsters on some of the more valuable secrets is a way you can balance off part of the bonus given by them so that they don't make the level too easy once players become more familiarized with it.

[hobomaster22]

Lutz said:

This is slightly off topic, but it's my thread: To me, 100% kills is different than 100% item collection, especially in UD when 100% of the items includes every helmet and potion. However, 100% kills implies that the player truly BEAT the level -- I came, I saw, I kicked major ass. Again, though, that's my opinion.

I would have to agree. Also, E1M3 comes to mind. It had that whole section full of monsters in the secret to get to the secret level.

[TraderEddy]

[deleted]

[40oz]

kristus said:

I'm gonna play Devil's advocate here a bit. But by that same logic then you shouldn't place "items" in secrets either. Since that is a stat that people could go after as well, and by the same logic it shouldn't be demanded that they find the secrets to get the items stat. Simply because it's not the norm to go after Items alone. You shouldn't assume any different about them as you do monsters.

EDIT: Gez beat me to it.

meh. I've always considered maxing items and maxing secrets to be the same thing.

[magicsofa]

myk said:

he or she is kept more on his toes as he goes.

are you gender neutral, or not?

myk said:

Besides, adding monsters on some of the more valuable secrets is a way you can balance off part of the bonus given by them so that they don't make the level too easy once the player becomes more familiarized with it.

I agree, secrets can really favor the player if the level is already balanced for a run with no secrets found.


Here's an idea, what if there aren't monsters in the secret but entering triggers some kind of trap later on? Such as, opening some extra monster closets or adding more monsters to a teleporting horde.

[darkreaver]

magicsofa said:

Here's an idea, what if there aren't monsters in the secret but entering triggers some kind of trap later on? Such as, opening some extra monster closets or adding more monsters to a teleporting horde.

I liked this one.

I`m all for monsters in secrets. If you are going for UV-max, youll find them anyway, and if youre not, then...who cares.

[printz]

I love megasphere + chaingunner secrets.

[purist]

I remember a thread on secret area etiquette not so long ago. I said then that I don't think monsters should be placed in secrets (unless it is a passage to a secret area or shortcut) as it's feels unfair to die in one.

Being a contrary type of person the next map I made I had a secret area that had monsters but no items. It was still an advantage to the player as if the monsters are not killed in the secret area they appear later in a more difficult situation.

[kristus]

40oz said:

meh. I've always considered maxing items and maxing secrets to be the same thing.

And I consider Maxing Items Secrets and Kills the same thing.

[40oz]

magicsofa said:

Here's an idea, what if there aren't monsters in the secret but entering triggers some kind of trap later on? Such as, opening some extra monster closets or adding more monsters to a teleporting horde.

That's pretty much the same thing as putting monsters in the secret by themselves minus the surprise factor. If you don't find the secrets then the monsters remain outside of the play area.

In UAC Ultra MAP02, however, I did set up a cacodemon monster closet that is opened once the player reaches the red key, but the closet is also opened once you reach the soulsphere secret as well. Since the soulsphere is much closer to the closets than the red key is, it's a bit more dangerous if you get the secret, but it also cancels the need to fight the cacodemons later on.

[gggmork]

I think it just varies with the mappers intentions; no cookie cutter rule.
you need 100% secrets AND 100% kills for a conventional uv max demo anyway.

When I only care about gameplay, I tend to not use any secrets because they can be a tedious chore to find in doombuilder before finally attempting a uv max demo. Back when I didn't use doombuilder to find secrets, it was kinda a lame let down to see someone else's demo where a secret powerup I didn't even know about gives a major advantage or makes my entire route need readjustment (like the pain elemental or blue armor secret in hr 13). I like how timeofdeath's maps often have some of the hardest enemy waves hidden in secrets (instead of powerups).
Imo, secrets made more sense for the iwads when the game was new and pressing spacebar on a decoration resulted in a then-novel surprise. Now everyone knows that there tend to be 2 'secret' levels on 31 and 32 and how to type iddqd etc. Plus the internet makes secrets pretty hard to keep.

[myk]

But think about FDAs, which are a kind of exploratory play. In those, a secret may make an important difference, especially the ones with some kind of hint. You might see a supercharge through a barred window, and wonder "should I try to get that or just hurry on?" One choice or the other may result in a shorter or longer demo. On one hand, you might waste a lot of time trying to get to it, regardless of whether you find it, in the end, and on the other, getting it may make what comes later easier and quicker due to the extra health, by avoiding death or barging through the opposition.

For example, I've been watching some D2Reload (great WAD, by the way) FDA demos by skepticist and Heretic and one thing that seemed to slow Heretic down some, who might otherwise be the more powerful fighter, was trying to access hard to get stuff.

[gggmork]

Yeah, good point that secrets can be fun for FDAs. I guess secrets don't have replay value because you can only discover it once, then after that its just a known part of the route (but a FDA is that once). I forget if I have already played that wad.