Your thoughts on the "No rest for the Living" episode for the Xbox live arcade Doom 2

[Gez]

Though Batman Doom, contrarily to KDiZD, should not be played in ZDoom. There are three or four levels that just don't work (IIRC, at least Helicopter, Arkham Asylum 2, and Bane; though the last can be played correcly with the sv_infiniteammo cheat).

[DuckReconMajor]

And though Scuba Steve is too modest to suggest it himself, you need to play Action Doom 2.

[skogsto09]

TheCastle said:

As far as nightmare...
I think the general consensus with nightmare is, although I am not speaking for anyone else, that its so hardcore that it would be a bad idea to encourage normal players to play it. Ah honestly, I am not sure if that's the right attitude. What do you think?

Nightmare is ironically by far the best implemented skill level for doom2. In the context of doom2 "hell on earth".

Each level design\architecture allows for multiple options, in terms of routes and tactics used throughout to progress. Alongside with the brilliant weapon\item\powerup placement. Its what gives both the more "casual" doomer and "veteran" doomers diffrent ways of approach.

The game itself has a *long* demo history which manifest itself on sites like compet-n. (down as we speak). As far as nightmare speedrunning goes, people started uploading demos showing their best attempts in beating the game. Really getting into it with a competive mindsett. It was for the first time done in 1998 (by Thomas Pilger time: 49min49sec's). In the years following people like myself pushed the time to what eventually would be 29:39, which stands as the best time as of today.

I would love to see a doom2 xbox achivement system based on how far into the game a player would be able to progress. This alone would certantly inspire, and open the public eye to a new dimension to the reply value of this game.

At least a leaderboard showing each players accomplishments on this task :)

Or what do you think?

[Phml]

Anyone who can beat Doom2 on NM and call himself a "casual" doomer is in denial. There's probably no more than a hundred players who have ever done this (assuming no "cheats" such as saves or modifications), and I doubt any of them used a gamepad to do so.

Calling the top 0.001% players merely good, the top 0.01% players alright, the top 0.1% players average and the top 1% players casual is all well and good in the demo forum, but when you're discussing a commercial add-on you've got to step back on earth and realise the average skill level is nowhere near that. Making an achievement that would be essentially unreachable for most would just piss off a lot of customers.

A leaderboard would make much more sense, in my opinion.

[NeoWorm]

Phml said:Making an achievement that would be essentially unreachable for most would just piss off a lot of customers.

I would say that it will be finally some achievement that means something. Not just that you have too much time to do stupidities like killing 100 zombiemans by berserker fist. Its trivial boring and stupid - just like 90% of XBox achievements...

[Vegeta]

I think the episode is pretty good, yet it cries for a new sky and endpic.
The final map was a lot of fun as I played it avoiding lame tricks and the use of any other weapon than rocket launcher.
The texture variation was poor at times making some parts as made by a random level generator. Other parts were top notch.

An effect to make the cyberdemon look with a different color or something and extra health (ala nightmare spectre) would have added to the game too.

[DuckReconMajor]

jerks say:
MAKE NIGHTMARE AN ACHIEVEMENT

I will agree with this when you find at least one person who has beaten the entire thing on Nightmare! with 360 controls and without any grabs or other exploitations.

[40oz]

im working on it.

I'm on Vivisection

[DuckReconMajor]

You already beaten Hell on Earth?

[skogsto09]

Phml said:

Anyone who can beat Doom2 on NM and call himself a "casual" doomer is in denial. There's probably no more than a hundred players who have ever done this (assuming no "cheats" such as saves or modifications), and I doubt any of them used a gamepad to do so.

Calling the top 0.001% players merely good, the top 0.01% players alright, the top 0.1% players average and the top 1% players casual is all well and good in the demo forum, but when you're discussing a commercial add-on you've got to step back on earth and realise the average skill level is nowhere near that. Making an achievement that would be essentially unreachable for most would just piss off a lot of customers.

A leaderboard would make much more sense, in my opinion.

Maybe I didn't make myself *clear* in my last statement, but you certantly misunderstood. You are allowed to save as you advance throu each stage. Which means that you can complete every stage on it's own.

[_bruce_]

Played through it and really liked it. The architecture of the base levels was totally not my thing - though well made.
The hellish levels looked ace. Not too little nor too much detail.
Lots of fun - recommended!

[Phml]

Maybe I didn't make myself *clear* in my last statement, but you certantly misunderstood. You are allowed to save as you advance throu each stage. Which means that you can complete every stage on it's own.

Fair enough, that makes it easier, and you'd have significantly more people being able to do it. I'd still argue it'd be a drop in the ocean compared to the vast majority of doom players who would never be able to beat all 32 maps in NM, saves or no saves, and to lump "casual doomers" who play in NM at all with real casual gamers (you know, the guys who buy games and don't even complete them on any difficulty, the guys who have maybe 1 to 2 hours of gaming per week and will not stick to the same game) is still completely misleading, in my opinion.

I don't care how anyone spins it, but someone who can beat Doom2 in NM, saves or not, isn't casual by any means.

[myk]

Phml said:
I don't care how anyone spins it, but someone who can beat Doom2 in NM, saves or not, isn't casual by any means.

Well, when talking in an environment where no one is strictly casual, casual can end up meaning the most casual among us. You might not really be a casual player, but you did say you've made casual demos.

[ReFracture]

Oh man, myself and two of my buddies beat Doom 2 on NM at one time or another (separately, not co-op). I don't think I'll ever do that again, I'll just stick to watching Vile's NM-30 run haha.

[TheCastle]

skogsto09 said:

Or what do you think?

I think that is a really good idea :)
Though achievements might be better off being attainable by the average achievement farmer. Or at least that is my general understanding of one of the required design boundaries of achievements.

I think that this is the sort of thing where "challenges" come in though. *shrugs*

[Gez]

Ah, achievement farming...

[phi108]

No, gez, not again! I've already been through that game twice! AchieeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[skogsto09]

Phml said:

Fair enough, that makes it easier, and you'd have significantly more people being able to do it. I'd still argue it'd be a drop in the ocean compared to the vast majority of doom players who would never be able to beat all 32 maps in NM, saves or no saves, and to lump "casual doomers" who play in NM at all with real casual gamers (you know, the guys who buy games and don't even complete them on any difficulty, the guys who have maybe 1 to 2 hours of gaming per week and will not stick to the same game) is still completely misleading, in my opinion.

I don't care how anyone spins it, but someone who can beat Doom2 in NM, saves or not, isn't casual by any means.

Well, all achivements aren't supposed to be attainable unless you spend time with the game and work on getting the skills needed. You can't expect to get all achivements in a game just as easy as you got the first one. It should need a little more work to it than 1-2 hours of gaming per week. Having a achivement system based on this structure would indeed promote replay value to the game. Few games has ever had the opportunity to present challanges like this.

Belive me when I'm saying this, completing every map with save\load in between does not represent a particular big challange at all on nightmare. Even to the average gamer. Like I explained earlier, the map design and weapon\item\powerup placements throughout allows for so many diffrent routes and tactical approaches for each stage.

I've played this game pretty *non* casual now since 1996. Since 1999 I've been recording whole doom2 nightmare runs regulary, every time I redefined my approach to it. I should know what I'm talking about regarding my opinions on this matter.

[Reevys]

I finished Hell On Earth within 24 hours of downloading it. I actually stopped about halfway through to go to a family party, and drunkenly finished the other half when I got back in just after midnight. I honestly think it's a miracle I managed to beat Map30, I'm usually really bad at that level even when I'm sober.

Anyways, I started No Rest For The Living when I woke up in the morning, but I think my hangover severely affected my game playing abilities. I got destroyed a good few times in situations I should have been able to handle just fine. Because of this, I only played up till Map04, then left it for a few days. When I got back to it though, I was on top form, and was able to cope much better. I think this is the main reason for my initial dislike of the first few levels, I just associate them with a bad hangover. Anyways, I'll stop with my life story now and give my impressions of each level;

Map01 was a pretty cool wee techbase level. I really liked the Super Shotgun secret, it was awesome. So many mid-high level enemies in close quarters with nothing but a shotgun. Also, @TheCastle, I really liked the easter egg you snuck into this level. Pretty clever stuff. :D

Map02 was probably my least favourite of the normal levels tbh. I spent quite a lot of the time just aiming at things with the Chaingun and holding fire, which was really quite boring. Design wise though, the level is pretty good, and I think I'd have found it more enjoyable had I gotten the SS from Map01 when I attempted this playthrough.

Map03 was a weird one at first, as I thought that the transition between techbase and demon stronghold was a little odd. But after completing the episode, it totally makes sense now. And I have to admit, the secret with the teleporter in the acid pit was pretty cool as well.

Map04 was awesome, I quite liked the way you had to battle your way up the mountain while jumping from cover to cover. It also had a few good fights in close quarters with Barons and Hell Knights, which was pretty sweet. The thing I really loved the most about the level though was that when you got the Plasma Rifle, you could look back down the mountain and see how far you had to fight to get there. It was just really cool, and gave a nice wee sense of satisfaction.

Map05 was by far my favourite. I dunno why really, I just thought it looked and played very well. I've never been a fan of killing waves of enemies in corridors, but this level did a good job of making it enjoyable, I felt.

Map06 was by far the hardest level in my opinion, and on several occasions I was running around nigh-on empty. By the time I killed everything though, I went back and found all the secrets, which brought me up to 200% health and armour, and almost full ammo as well. I'd probably have found it much easier had I used these items when I needed them though, rather than trying to conserve them till the end of the level. Oh, and speaking of secrets, I really loved the BFG secret in this map. It was just insanely cool. <3

Map07 was a cake walk compared to Map06 (apart from the insane Cacodemon rape when you reach the peak of the main spiral section, of course). Still, it was an enjoyable level nonetheless, although I really feel it should have it's position switched with Map06.

Map08 was a very boring boss level, as I just ran in and blasted everything with my BFG. This annihilated the Cyberdemon as well as most of the Imps. Afterwards, I went around and threw all the switches, expecting Barons and Mancubi and Cacodemons to come from everywhere, but I got nothing but a few Imps and lots of pointless ammo. I don't even think I'd have found it more fun had I used the Rocket Launcher, as I've never really been a fan of Rocket Launcher battles with Cybers, especially when trying to navigate narrow corridors.

Map09 wasn't a very fun level, and it kinda breaks the chain of fun levels, I'd say. I guess I'm just not to much of a fan of just fighting wave after wave of mid-to-high tier enemies that just surround and rape you. The only thing I really liked about it was the fact you could get a bunch of enemies to just annihilate the Spider Mastermind for you. That was really awesome to watch. :D

I'd probably say the thing I liked the most about the new episode is the difficulty. I played it on Ultra-Violence, but I don't think it was anywhere near as hard as the OP makes it sound. I found it to be a decent challenge that kept me on my toes, without being too frustrating, much like Episode 4 in The Ultimate Doom. I wouldn't say it's hard, far from it in fact, but it's definitely a step up from anything in Hell On Earth. The ammo and health balance was nice, I was never running around with to much or too little really, apart from the end of the levels, but that's coz I purposefully conserved stuff. Bear in mind though that I only maxed out my inventory because of all the secrets and stuff (which were all pretty well hidden btw, nicely done). I also really think it was a master stroke not putting any backpacks in till the last level, really helped add a bit of tension to the whole thing.

Overall, I'd say it was a very fun map pack, and I totally forgive Nerve Software for taking so long to release it. I just hope that if they decide to release Final Doom on the XBLA as well, they make their own 32-map megawad to sit alongside the original two. :D

[DuckReconMajor]

skogsto09 said:

Well, all achivements aren't supposed to be attainable unless you spend time with the game and work on getting the skills needed. You can't expect to get all achivements in a game just as easy as you got the first one. It should need a little more work to it than 1-2 hours of gaming per week. Having a achivement system based on this structure would indeed promote replay value to the game. Few games has ever had the opportunity to present challanges like this.

Belive me when I'm saying this, completing every map with save\load in between does not represent a particular big challange at all on nightmare. Even to the average gamer. Like I explained earlier, the map design and weapon\item\powerup placements throughout allows for so many diffrent routes and tactical approaches for each stage.

I've played this game pretty *non* casual now since 1996. Since 1999 I've been recording whole doom2 nightmare runs regulary, every time I redefined my approach to it. I should know what I'm talking about regarding my opinions on this matter.

Shut cho mouf. It took me like 2 years to get the achievements on the first one.

[TheCastle]

Reevys said:

Overall, I'd say it was a very fun map pack, and I totally forgive Nerve Software for taking so long to release it. I just hope that if they decide to release Final Doom on the XBLA as well, they make their own 32-map megawad to sit alongside the original two. :D

That was an awesome read btw.
Thanks for taking the time to write that :)

[Gez]

Someone is cheating with freelook :p

[skogsto09]

DuckReconMajor said:

Shut cho mouf. It took me like 2 years to get the achievements on the first one.

Damn you need to practice :)

[Reevys]

TheCastle said:

That was an awesome read btw.
Thanks for taking the time to write that :)

It's no problem. :D

[PirateNipple]

Played on UV and I really enjoyed it, I felt it was pretty challenging. I thought the architecture was great and really liked maps 4, 5, and 7.

[TheCastle]

I spent Friday night playing through the whole episode on the Xbox from start to finish on UV. It was strange because I was getting my ass kicked on even my own levels. lol..

Everything changes when you sit down and just play in your living room.

[Reevys]

I bought 3 Months Gold today, so I was finally able to get the online achievement I was missing, bringing me up to the full 200G. :D

It also gave me access to the leaderboards though, and after having a look at them, I'm seriously considering going back through the game and trying to set far better records. Or any records, for that matter. Despite the fact I was online when I played through the game, none of my times were uploaded to the leaderboards. And I just can't stand the idea of some of my non-Doom enthusiast friends having higher records than me.

[pcorf]

I watched demos of the levels on youtube and was impressed. Very good work.

[Reevys]

I was wondering if you could maybe answer a question regarding the leaderboards for me, TheCastle.

You see, I completed all 32 levels while signed in to Xbox Live, yet none of my scores were uploaded to the leaderboards. I later thought it may be because I didn't have Gold at the time. But then a friend of mine who has Gold started playing it, and for some reason, only his scores for Map01 and Map11 uploaded.

It's quite perplexing, and I just wanted to know if you had any idea of why this has happened.

[TheCastle]

Reevys said:

I was wondering if you could maybe answer a question regarding the leaderboards for me, TheCastle.

You see, I completed all 32 levels while signed in to Xbox Live, yet none of my scores were uploaded to the leaderboards. I later thought it may be because I didn't have Gold at the time. But then a friend of mine who has Gold started playing it, and for some reason, only his scores for Map01 and Map11 uploaded.

It's quite perplexing, and I just wanted to know if you had any idea of why this has happened.

Sorry about the delayed response. Unfortunately I am not sure why that would happen. Ill ask about this tomorrow and get back to you.