Israel attacks aid convoy, kills 15

[Mr. T]

WTF?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/201053133047995359.html

[Technician]

Here we go.

[RestlessRodent]

I read the Yahoo news article.

Shit like this happens when one of your activists decide to attack armed guards.

Regardless of whichever article you read, you probably aren't going to get the 100% true story as journalists and the media exaggerate alot.

[Maes]

Well, Israel had threatened to stop the flotilla by any means, so this doesn't surprise me in the least.

There was no fucking way they would have let them go through even if the activists sailed with their hands submissively placed behind their heads and bent over 90 degrees, exposing their naked buttocks in totally Beta submission to the Alpha IDS men all along.

[GreyGhost]

Doesn't surprise me. It's Israeli government policy to treat Gaza as an open-plan prison farm in the hope that prolonged privation will erode popular support for Hamas, though all that's likely to produce is another generation of extremists.

[Aliotroph?]

That and Israel is doing their usual schizo routine where the army says one thing and (some of) the politicians say another. They aren't very good at image management, even in cases where they have a sound policy. They also aren't very good at having a consistent policy. Democracy in action!

[Mr. T]

GhostlyDeath said:

I read the Yahoo news article.

Shit like this happens when one of your activists decide to attack armed guards.

Regardless of whichever article you read, you probably aren't going to get the 100% true story as journalists and the media exaggerate alot.

Are you fucking retarded? They were attacked in international waters by soldiers and it's their fault?


...

[Aliotroph?]

Well, there's a question? Can we confirm they were in international waters? If they were there could be some ugliness. Even if that was the case, you just don't point anything at guys with guns unless you're sure you can win.

[Maes]

Aliotroph? said:

Well, there's a question? Can we confirm they were in international waters?

I read figures ranging from 70 to 120 nautical miles away from the Israeli coast. That's as international as it can get without being in the middle of a fucking ocean.

And...did anyone really harbor hope that Israel would NOT behave as if the world was a henhouse and they were the rooster, once more? Its defense is considered "vital" to the interests of the US so they win by default. Debate ended.

[Belial]

On BBC I just saw an Israeli army spokeswoman (it's always a woman, I wonder why) spin the usual tale portraying the people they attacked as terrorists who prepared a premeditated violent response trying to 'lynch' their navy commandos when they came on board.

Quoting her, they had two pistols and an assortment of metal objects.

Yep, totally prepared to attack Israeli special forces.

It also says something about the Israeli military if they feel threatened so much by 'metal objects' that they open fire with live ammunition instead of, I don't know, spraying them with tear gas or whatever.

[Aliotroph?]

Yup, no image management. They go in too early and with guns blazing. Their military seems to be only good at blowing things up.

I propose a new solution: give Gaza back to Egypt and see what they do with it. hehehe

[Belial]

The deputy foreign minister of Israel didn't bother going into details and just said they were armed with various weapons.

Apparently the official version didn't reach Ashdod (where the interviewed spokeswoman was) in time.

[Maes]

Belial said:

The deputy foreign minister of Israel didn't bother going into details and just said they were armed with various weapons.

You are aware that if the e.g. Police come searching in your house for ANY reason, they can charge you or at least expose you as "armed and dangerous" just on the grounds of possessing a kitchen knife, a wood axe, steel pipes, a heavy hammer and even pointed wooden sticks, right?

Of course most such charges wouldn't stand up in a fair court afterwards, but the burden of proof would still be on you (as is the stress of a police search, arrest, pre-incarceration, interrogation etc.)

I like how Israel tries to strip the aiders of legitimacy as much as possible by treating them with the same "respect" and tactics the Police would employ in a ghetto raid. Pretty much, they're all IDF's bitches, and the slightest sign of dissent/disrespect will be dealt with bullying and jack-booting.

[RazTK]

What about the Armenians? What about Chechens? How would Turkey or the USA (or any other country for that matter) would react if someone whose interests are doubtable would come close to their territorial water? We *did* offer them to change course to another harbor in Ashdod, and to transfer their "deliveries" to Gaza. Gaza is being ruled by Hamas, a terrorist organization, and they are responsible for the so-called humanitarian issues and/or any other issues in Gaza. Period. We have the right to check any of the supplies that are being brought to Gaza in order to prevent any unwanted "things" (weaponry of course) from entering the strip. Israel is being continually attacked from the strip by terrorists (and the Hamas government does nothing except "censuring" it). But I bet you don't hear anything about it, do you? Hamas are in turn responsible for any loss on their side by our just actions to defend ourselves.

All sorts of "peace" activities and protests around the world against Israel (including this very sailing to Gaza) are funded by so-called "organizations" (that mark themselves as "peace organizations", which are in turn funded by anti-Israel governments: Iran, Qatar, Turkey, you name it) with one purpose in mind: to steadily destroy Israel's image in the eyes of the world and in turn create such diplomatic crises. It's all planned to prepare the ground for Israel's destruction (which Iran's president already declared in public press, not once -- but, again, I bet you don't hear anything about it from your media).

Why aren't there any protests against Turkey or Russia for what they did (and still do) to the Chechens and Armenians? I bet Russia won't even let such protests exist. But it's all about how Israel is evil and the rest of the world are pure angels. I could have kept going by I'll save you my "pro-Israel" (as many of you will mark as) speech.

Let me add that on the sailing were a few (Arabic, of course) members from our parliament. This is an unbelievable situation that no other country would tolerate. Also, I'm NOT justifying ANY of the killings that happened today. In retrospect, we could have done it another way.

Let the flaming begin.

P.S. Sorry for any English-mistakes I might have made.

[dew]

yeah so... anyone knows what the aid really was? they refused to head to egyptian or israeli ports in order to: a) break the blocade in a showy manner, b) avoid any cargo checks. this was a huge well-planned provocation and israel was sure to jump the bait with it's never-back-down policy. the aid could've been just missile parts for hamas from israel's point of view, although stuffing the cargo with diapers and qur'an prints and then parade yourself in a provokative manner hoping for an incident is way more media profitable.

also anyone knows if there was really wounded israeli soldiers as some reports claimed, or is it just a cover up? also concerning the guns reported to be onboard of the aid ships, only the captain of the ship is allowed to have a gun onboard, that's why the somalian pirates are so successful. 'two and possibly more guns' means illegal, although israel's response was heavy handed as usual.

[kristus]

Maes said:

Of course most such charges wouldn't stand up in a fair court afterwards, but the burden of proof would still be on you (as is the stress of a police search, arrest, pre-incarceration, interrogation etc.)

Uh. In which court? The burden of proof isn't on the defendant.

[Maes]

kristus said:

Uh. In which court? The burden of proof isn't on the defendant.

All the "proof" the accusing party (namely, the Police) needs in such cases is just that they found these objects in your possession, which (for them) is quick & easy, and are actually enough to be prosecuted on the grounds of "possessing improper weaponry" in many jurisdictions. Proving that you didn't intend to use them as such is another matter. Nothing good can come out of an unrestricted police or otherwise search.

[Maes]

RazTK said:

What about the Armenians? What about Chechens? How would Turkey or the USA (or any other country for that matter) would react if someone whose interests are doubtable would come close to their territorial water?

It all depends on your diplomatic importance, interests compatibility, tonnage and military intimidation / deterrent power. For example, we in Greece are under direct threat of Casius Belli by Turkey if we just dare expand our territorial waters to the internationally legal distance of 6 miles. We're the only country which has a different air and water distance because of that, yet we have to put up with it because we know that NATO and the USA will stay indifferent or even back up Turkey on this one. Both ways, we'd be fucked, and we know it. Else we'd have gone Israel on their ass long ago.

BTW, this also means that intercepting the convoy so far out of your territory constitutes a "first blood" preemptive strike. You need balls of steel (and strong diplomatic allies) to pull that sort of thing without NATO "shocking and awe-ing" you the day after.

Same thing with Serbia: they threated Kosovars as "terrorists" too, but they got NATO on their ass for doing so, because obviously their interests weren't compatible with the USA's and NATO's (Camp Bondsteel, anyone?)

While e.g. if we and Serbs were like you, we'd just bomb Turks and Serbs would treat Kosovars with airstrikes and bulldozers, tell them to suck it down, and NONE would dare complain let alone bomb Serbian cities afterwards. Double and triple standards there.

[Bank]

I don't like that my taxpayer dollars are subsidizing a nation that feels that they can do whatever the hell they want without consequence and have been since 1948. If Israel wants to go around killing anyone who looks at them the wrong way, they can do it without my money.

Israel should be held to exactly the same kind of criticism as any other independent state, though groups like the ADL are effectively trying to immunize Israel from all criticism by insinuating that any any critique of Israeli policy is antisemitism.

[Belial]

RazTK said:

All sorts of "peace" activities and protests around the world against Israel (including this very sailing to Gaza) are funded by so-called "organizations" (that mark themselves as "peace organizations", which are in turn funded by anti-Israel governments: Iran, Qatar, Turkey, you name it) with one purpose in mind: to steadily destroy Israel's image in the eyes of the world and in turn create such diplomatic crises.

Your country seems to be doing a fine job at it all by itself.

Why aren't there any protests against Turkey or Russia for what they did (and still do) to the Chechens and Armenians? I bet Russia won't even let such protests exist.

Israel doesn't seem to care about such protests. Russia didn't care about protests in Poland after Chechnyan and Georgian incidents. Your argument doesn't hold water, since protests were held and they didn't influence anything.

Maes said:

You are aware that if the e.g. Police come searching in your house for ANY reason, they can charge you or at least expose you as "armed and dangerous" just on the grounds of possessing a kitchen knife, a wood axe, steel pipes, a heavy hammer and even pointed wooden sticks, right?

No I am not aware of that because it doesn't happen in Poland.

All the "proof" the accusing party (namely, the Police) needs in such cases is just that they found these objects in your possession, which (for them) is quick & easy, and are actually enough to be prosecuted on the grounds of "possessing improper weaponry" in many jurisdictions. Proving that you didn't intend to use them as such is another matter. Nothing good can come out of an unrestricted police or otherwise search.

What kristus said. Your country must have a really shitty police force.

[Sharessa]

Bank said:

I don't like that my taxpayer dollars are subsidizing a nation that feels that they can do whatever the hell they want without consequence and have been since 1948. If Israel wants to go around killing anyone who looks at them the wrong way, they can do it without my money.

Israel should be held to exactly the same kind of criticism as any other independent state, though groups like the ADL are effectively trying to immunize Israel from all criticism by insinuating that any any critique of Israeli policy is antisemitism.

This.

When can we stop funding this fascist theocratic police state of international terrorists? Zionism is the worst thing that ever happened to the world.

[dew]

Danarchy said:

When can we stop funding this fascist theocratic police state of international terrorists? Zionism is the worst thing that ever happened to the world.

why are you hating on mini-usa? your countries make a great pair, so alike!

[DeathevokatioN]

Maes said:

All the "proof" the accusing party (namely, the Police) needs in such cases is just that they found these objects in your possession, which (for them) is quick & easy, and are actually enough to be prosecuted on the grounds of "possessing improper weaponry" in many jurisdictions. Proving that you didn't intend to use them as such is another matter. Nothing good can come out of an unrestricted police or otherwise search.

Yeah, I've seen cases where people HAVE been arrested and charged for possession of such items. Happens in third world countries like over here in South Africa quite a lot, especially when there's a cover up involved.

[Scuba Steve]

Israel is the largest terrorist state in the world.

[Mr. Freeze]

goddamn jews

[AveryMaurice]

Personally, I believe the States should stop funding Israel. They are pretty much awarding them for playing with fire.

[dew]

wow. i see this thread is turning into a massive display of anti-semitism even though there is almost NONE reliable information about the incident. good job, guys!

i actually bothered to look up the videos and it's all heavily cut, highly uncoherent clips aired by cnn turk (neutrality?) repeated over and over. still, there's a short clip of some activists attacking an israeli soldier with batons. this guy appears to be holding a gun, so i don't know what to think about israel's claim the activists started shooting first. they also claim they tried to take a rifle from one of the soldiers, which is also not seen anywhere in the chaotic footage.

how are you guys so incredibly sure to condemn israel as the evil side? they are bullies, sure. but terrorists? usa does worse! these emotional screams about goddamn jews? it's quite sickening, i thought dw is usually reserved and relies on facts.

[Aliotroph?]

And this is why they should hand Gaza back to Egypt. Not that Egypt wants it, but it would be fun to compare an Egyption treatment of Gazans with Israel's treatment.

Another way to do it would to just have Israel and the rest of the U.N. declare certain areas to be a Palestinian country unilaterally and watch what they do it with. If they got any free Israeli buildings that way they would probably knock them down like they seem to do whenever that happens.

And what the heck is with Turkey and Greece? They both look silly with their little mini cold war thing. Greece also looks silly for bitching about Macedonia's name. It's a little like Canada's retarded border dispute with Denmark where every few years some politicians show up on this little island with a helicopter and flag... :D

[myk]

Danarchy said:
Zionism is the worst thing that ever happened to the world.

I face-palmed so hard it left a permanent mark on my face.

[scalliano]

@RazTK: That is the most typical (and redundant) response imaginable. "Sure, look at what all those other mad bastards are doing!" This sentiment is evidence that you have nothing legitimate to say for yourself, much like your government.

And you can rant on all you want about media obfuscation, the simple fact is that it works both ways; the rest of the world gets to see the stuff that YOUR media doesn't show.