Israel attacks aid convoy, kills 15

[dew]

goddamn jew nazies, rite guys? AMI DOIN IT RITE GYS?

[scalliano]

So they managed to muscle ONE GUY off the ship. Had they been carrying the kind of hardware we all are supposed to believe that they were I reckon there would have been a few more tossed over, not all of them alive.

Doesn't change the fact that 15-or-so crew are dead.

[dew]

scalliano said:

So they managed to muscle ONE GUY off the ship.

hey, genius. that's a video, not an image. it plays when you click on it. also throwing him off the board is basically an attempt to kill him, not just beat him up.

[scalliano]

Nice attempt at patronizing me, too bad it failed. My point stands.

[dew]

it seems there was up to 19 dead, but my point is: they attacked and brutalized the first wave of the soldiers with makeshift weapons, that's worthy a darwin award. i am not surprised at all the israelis retaliated with force, they were probably defending their lives at that point.

i am not comfortable with the fact this accident happened in the international waters (or so are claiming the activists) and israel's general policies that contributed to this escalation, but from the start i believed the initial reports were highly inaccurate. this video is confirming what i thought about the massacre itself: provoked.

[AveryMaurice]

dew said:

hey, genius. that's a video, not an image. it plays when you click on it. also throwing him off the board is basically an attempt to kill him, not just beat him up.

And how does that prove his point false?

Also, Israel attacked a boat when they thought the crew was UNARMED, therefore justifying it is stupid. Really, the crew had the right to defend themselves, not the other way around as you claim. The Israelis were attacking, not "defending their lives" on international water.

I will say that I am not calling the Israelis "terrorists" or anything of that nature, they just fucked up... again.

[scalliano]

dew said:

it seems there was up to 19 dead, but my point is: they attacked and brutalized the first wave of the soldiers with makeshift weapons, that's worthy a darwin award. i am not surprised at all the israelis retaliated with force, they were probably defending their lives at that point.

And the crew weren't? Spare me, please...

dew said:

i am not comfortable with the fact this accident happened in the international waters (or so are claiming the activists) and israel's general policies that contributed to this escalation, but from the start i believed the initial reports were highly inaccurate. this video is confirming what i thought about the massacre itself: provoked.

Surely you mean "incident"?

All this confirms to me is that members of the crew began attacking the Israeli soldiers when they boarded the ship. We knew that already. The Israeli military has a reputation of shooting first and not bothering to ask questions at all, so the reaction of the crew does not surprise me in the slightest. They probably felt their lives were in danger. As it transpires, they were right.

[RazTK]

scalliano said:

And you can rant on all you want about media obfuscation, the simple fact is that it works both ways; the rest of the world gets to see the stuff that YOUR media doesn't show.

No, the rest of the world gets to see what the media wants you to see. Our media shows exactly the same videos that dew posted above. Did YOUR media show them, BTW?

I agree with you on one thing though: anything we say won't change the fact that people were unfortunately killed. We did have enough time to prepare ourselves for this encounter, yet we failed to do so properly. They have been warned a couple of times before we decided to take control of the ship, yet they refused to listen and responded saying "our destination is Gaza". They were told to change their course to Ashdod's port, so we could then transfer their supplies to Gaza, but our offers for help were refused again and again.

We did not plan to kill anyone. Our soldiers were armed with paintball rifles and pistols only to defend themselves in case their lives were threatened. We didn't even imagine that those "peace activists" were planning to lynch us with slingshots and knives even before the first soldier set foot on the deck (as you can see in the video).


I also thank you all for keeping this difficult discussion somewhat civilized. Thank you.

[scalliano]

RazTK said:

No, the rest of the world gets to see what the media wants you to see. Our media shows exactly the same videos that dew posted above. Did YOUR media show them, BTW?

I didn't see that particular video, but as I said, it works in both directions. Did you see the footage where the captain appealed for calm over the tannoy, warning the crew that the miltary were using live rounds?

[RazTK]

scalliano said:

Did you see the footage where the captain appealed for calm over the tannoy, warning the crew that the miltary were using live rounds?

I think I did, yes. You may not know that, but the Navy commander gave the authorization to use live rounds only after the team was attacked. Unfortunately the soldiers had no other way of protecting themselves (and they did have to protect themselves somehow).

[AveryMaurice]

RazTK said:

Unfortunately the soldiers had no other way of protecting themselves (and they did have to protect themselves somehow).

The armed Israeli soldiers lives were in danger against a bunch of unarmed crewmen? Even if they did pick up makeshift weapons, it still doesn't justify why they decided to attack the ship in the first place on international waters.

[RazTK]

AveryMaurice said:

The armed Israeli soldiers lives were in danger against a bunch of unarmed crewmen? Even if they did pick up makeshift weapons, it still doesn't justify why they decided to attack the ship in the first place on international waters.

You keep on saying unarmed while they did attack our soldiers (and were the first to do so) with knives, slingshots (are those "makeshift weapons" too?) and molotovs. You are misleaded and misleading. Also, sooner or later they would have arrived at Gaza; would it be any different had we waited them to enter our territorial waters?

[Mr. T]

dew said:

wow. i see this thread is turning into a massive display of anti-semitism even though there is almost NONE reliable information about the incident. good job, guys!

Hi, anti-Israel doesn't equal antisemitism. There are Jews who are against what Israel is doing... the biggest example I can think of is of course Noam Chomsky and ultra-orthodox Jews who think that the creation of Israel is against God's will, so gtfo

[myk]

Mr. T said:
Hi, anti-Israel doesn't equal antisemitism.

Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't, but what do the comments made by Mr. Freeze, Scuba and Danarchy make you think?

[AveryMaurice]

RazTK said:

would it be any different had we waited them to enter our territorial waters?

Yes.

Also, as I said before, attacking a ship in international waters is an act of war, you can't just bend the rules because "it doesn't matter anyways".

[Mr. T]

What Mr. Freeze said is stupid and simple ammunition for Israel apologists.

Scuba Steve? In terms of shear bodycount, ridiculous invasions and the complete disregard shown towards regular fucking people by the Israeli state, I think it's not entirely inaccurate to describe Israel as a terrorist state.

Israel is the South Africa of the 21st century, and the sooner the Palestinians figure out a way to kick their asses back to Europe, the better.

Too bad the Israeli regime is given legitimacy by the equally corrupt dictatorships in Egypt and Jordan especially.

[myk]

Mr. T said:
In terms of shear bodycount, ridiculous invasions and the complete disregard shown towards regular fucking people by the Israeli state, I think it's not entirely inaccurate to describe Israel as a terrorist state.

But even then, by implying it's "the largest," one would be saying it's more terrorist than, for example, the United States, which doesn't hesitate to smack down really hard on Arabs in one place because Arabs from another blew something precious up, Russia with what it did in Chechnya or even Afghanistan before that, or Saudi Arabia and its blind eye toward the extremist groups financed by its elite class, which are all states that are arguably larger than Israel in most senses.

[RestlessRodent]

AveryMaurice said:

Yes.

Also, as I said before, attacking a ship in international waters is an act of war, you can't just bend the rules because "it doesn't matter anyways".

You can't declare war on a country that doesn't officially exist as Palestine is not a sovereign state.

[Bank]

GhostlyDeath said:

You can't declare war on a country that doesn't officially exist as Palestine is not a sovereign state.

It is however, recognized as one by about half the world. The UN also granted Observer status to the State of Palestine

myk said:

Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't, but what do the comments made by Mr. Freeze, Scuba and Danarchy make you think?

What makes antisemitism different from any other prejudice? I don't understand why for one designated group it becomes an argument destroying sin when for another (say, the poor) it's a difference of opinion.

Personally I am not a supporter of Israel and while it is true that you can hardly speak about Israel without speaking about Jews I feel that Israel deserves the same objective review as any other nation. I do not see another nation that is essentially reparations paid by the world (The UN/League of Nations) for atrocities committed on behalf of a single government. Israel as a nation relies on financial support from its biggest contributor--The United States--which also backs all of Israel's actions and interests. When the State of Palestine applied for WHO membership, the US threatened to withdraw all funding if they were admitted.

Israel has made a reputation for heavy-handed "retaliations" for any and all slights, and a wanton disregard for the same international policies that birthed it. As a nation that did not self-determine and one that has demonstrated numerous aggressive and domineering acts in its short existence, I find Israel to be a nation that I can not ideologically support, though I am forced to due to my own nation's hand in the creation of that nation.

On an additional note, the Anti-Defamation League has been proliferating use of the term "New Antisemitism" that conflates anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Political scientist Norman Finkelstein has stated that it serves "not to fight antisemitism but rather to exploit the historical suffering of Jews in order to immunize Israel against criticism (...) if Israeli policies, and widespread Jewish support for them, evoke hostility toward Jews, it means that Israel and its Jewish supporters might themselves be causing anti-Semitism; and it might be doing so because Israel and its Jewish supporters are in the wrong."

[Mr. T]

Protest in Ottawa Canada

[GreyGhost]

GhostlyDeath said:

You can't declare war on a country that doesn't officially exist as Palestine is not a sovereign state.

Just to clarify one point - the Mavi Marmara isn't a Palestinian ship, it sails under the Turkish flag.

Bank said:

Israel has made a reputation for heavy-handed "retaliations" for any and all slights, and a wanton disregard for the same international policies that birthed it.

It's long been said that "Israel doesn't have a foreign policy - only a defense policy", this latest incident merely underscores that viewpoint.

[Csonicgo]

GhostlyDeath said:

one of your activists

"You" are so quick to paint "your" so here's another "you" for you: You are an idiot. obviously the OP was affiliated because he showed disdain for israel and not for the activists? Get out of here, the adults are talking.

In reality, this only strains what little support Israel has left... which was close to none already.

[Sharessa]

The notion that they attacked a ship in international waters then when the crew fought back they had to "defend themselves" is completely absurd. It's like if I were to try to mug someone in the middle of the street and they fought back then I claimed "oh god, for some reason this guy is attacking me, I had to defend myself". Seriously, what the fuck is this logic?

dew said:

why are you hating on mini-usa? your countries make a great pair, so alike!

Don't even.

myk said:

I face-palmed so hard it left a permanent mark on my face.

Honestly, name something that has done more harm to our society than that. There is an entire swath of this planet, from Africa to India that has been stuck in the dark ages for the last 50 years because of it. There have been terror attacks worldwide, killing thousands. All because some assholes thought they had a claim to a strip of land already inhabited by people just because their mythological text said they did. Fucking Hell.

dew said:

how are you guys so incredibly sure to condemn israel as the evil side?

History.

myk said:

Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't, but what do the comments made by Mr. Freeze, Scuba and Danarchy make you think?

I'm not a fucking racist, you prick. I've known Jews and I've been cool with them. Some of them were even anti-Zion and anti-Israel. What does that make you think?

[Csonicgo]

in Danarchy's defence I know of a lot of anti-zionist Jews. There's a group of them at my University. So it's not uncommon, and definitely not anti-semetic to be anti-Zion. What I don't understand is the amount of fundamentalist Christians who are Zionists. What's it to them?

[Sharessa]

Csonicgo said:

in Danarchy's defence I know of a lot of anti-zionist Jews. There's a group of them at my University. So it's not uncommon, and definitely not anti-semetic to be anti-Zion. What I don't understand is the amount of fundamentalist Christians who are Zionists. What's it to them?

US policy is pro-Zion, and fundies are pro-USA! USA! USA!

[John Smith]

Technically Israel just declared war on Turkey. Which might not mean anything to GhostlyDeath, but rest assured it does to the Turkish government. Not saying they're going to start a war, in fact what will likely happen is that Turkey will find itself a bit richer on account of a generous donation from the Israeli government. Still, it isn't wise to piss off what few people in your neighborhood you have left that don't want to kill you.

[Mr. T]

Csonicgo said:

in Danarchy's defence I know of a lot of anti-zionist Jews. There's a group of them at my University. So it's not uncommon, and definitely not anti-semetic to be anti-Zion. What I don't understand is the amount of fundamentalist Christians who are Zionists. What's it to them?

They are convinced that a war in the holy land will cause Armageddon, and the return of Jesus.

[Aliotroph?]

Danarchy said:

Honestly, name something that has done more harm to our society than that. There is an entire swath of this planet, from Africa to India that has been stuck in the dark ages for the last 50 years because of it. There have been terror attacks worldwide, killing thousands. All because some assholes thought they had a claim to a strip of land already inhabited by people just because their mythological text said they did. Fucking Hell.

A whole swath of the world is stuck in the dark ages because they're pissed off at the existence of Israel? No. Stop being retarded. They're in the dark ages because they have cultures that put them there. If they wanted to they could have pretty impressive societies and still send guys to terrorize Jews and westerners. The reasons they don't are so much more complex than that.

You'd think the Palestinians might learn something from the Israelis. They could learn things like having governments that spend time running the country instead of shooting each other, how to use things you occupy instead of blowing them up more, etc. Nope.

Israel is there partially because a bunch of clever Jews bought a bunch of land and made that part of their country, partially because the west put it there, and partially because many of them were eager to fight off the pissed-off Arabs. Somehow I think it would take a lot more to build any resolve to destroy Israel. Meanwhile Hamas could have a much easier time in life if they decided to spend more time building houses instead of toy-missile factories.

Also, Israel does need to just start shooting some of their own extremists. It's obvious they can't have the whole West Bank so they might as well commit to something and start shooting the fellow Jews who disagree.

[Maes]

John Smith said:

Technically Israel just declared war on Turkey.

Yeah. The #1 US protectee "declared war" on what is probably the #1 US ass-kisser. They'll probably just throw in some congress on Turko-American-Jewish-Albanian friendship initiatives and cooperation between their respective chambers of commerce, sign some mutual weapon acquisition contracts and everybody will be happy, the world will be a better place, and the "bad witch" (the "terrorists", Kurds, Activists, etc. ) will be dead.

[GreyGhost]

Aliotroph? said:

Also, Israel does need to just start shooting some of their own extremists. It's obvious they can't have the whole West Bank so they might as well commit to something and start shooting the fellow Jews who disagree.

I can't see that happening - not while Israel's religious parties hold sufficient seats in the Knesset to make and break governments.