Israel attacks aid convoy, kills 15

[Reisal]

Looks like another aid ship is being sent their way again..

[Maes]

Aliotroph? said:

Maybe thugs with guns are good at fighting other thugs with somewhat different guns and improvised weapons.

If they ever faced a serious threat that could formally declare war on them and launch a full-scale offensive, they'd use their nukes. The IDF organization and tactic is more like a glorified/vastly empowered police force, which is especially tuned to facing internal enemies in hit-n-run operations.

[Mr. T]

Yep the IDF is pretty much useless as an offensive force against a "real" opponent, look at how they couldn't even beat Hezb Allah commandos back in 2006...

[dew]

Mr. T said:

Yep the IDF is pretty much useless as an offensive force against a "real" opponent, look at how they couldn't even beat Hezb Allah commandos back in 2006...

idf is the strongest force in the region and all the opposing states gave up hopes of confronting israel in direct military conflict 50 years ago! and no one ever wins against guerrillas without excessive civilian bloodshed. are you MADE of stupid?

[Mr. T]

You seem to be forgetting the excessive civilian deaths from four years ago. Would that not suit your point or something?

The truth is, in an OFFENSIVE war, the IDF is absolutely hopeless. Their strength is played up by the propaganda of both sides; Hosny Muabarak in particular uses it to silence political opposition at home.

The sad thing is, the apartheid blockade of Gaza is only possible because of Egyptian collaboration. Shame on them.

[Belial]

Apparently Egypt opened the border crossing in Rafah indefinitely after the incident.

[Ghastly]

This sounds a lot like the time some Israeli soldiers were practically crucified for accidentally shooting some women who were human shields for Hamas militants who were shooting at them.

[RazTK]

Danarchy said:

Israeli newspaper, Israeli newspaper, picture of tools I have laying around in my house, Hebrew youtube video of someone having an outburst during a UN session. Yeah, so very convincing.

GreyGhost said:

Just imagine the havoc that could have been wrought if Hamas had acquired those weapons.

You two are on about the same level on the ignorance meter. You make a great couple!

@GreyGhost: It's a picture of some of the weapons that were used to attack our soldiers, fool. I promise you, they already have many of those in the strip.

Anyway, please allow me to show you guys yet another video of an Israeli-Jewish propaganda:

Thank you.

[Maes]

RazTK said:

It's a picture of some of the weapons that were used to attack our soldiers, fool. I promise you, they already have many of those in the strip.

I wonder how they didn't include the ship's anchor in that...and thank God (or Jahve?) that they weren't using a whaling ship, with the nasty harpoon and all. Though, those ropes attached to the lifesavers were pretty vicious, they could hang at least 50 IDF soldiers with those, given the chance. And all that poisonous insiduous heavy oil in the ship's fuel tanks....they could poison ALL of Israel with it!!!!!

Do Israeli mechanics, chefs etc. need special permits for their tools? Are homeowners (well...at least Arab ones) required to register every nail in their household with the local police?

[Sharessa]

RazTK said:

You two are on about the same level on the ignorance meter. You make a great couple!

If you mean the level of "fairly knowledgeable", then yes. It's better than just letting yourself be force-fed Israeli propaganda.

The fact remains that Israel attacked these ships in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. This is considered, worldwide, piracy at best and a declaration of war at worst. Israel is doing enough by themselves to give themselves a bad image. Once again, here they are, starting shit then claiming they are the victim once everyone is paying attention.

[RazTK]

Danarchy said:

The fact remains that Israel attacked these ships in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. This is considered, worldwide, piracy at best and a declaration of war at worst.

Terrorism will be fought everywhere.

[GreyGhost]

If the people on the aid ships are terrorists - why are they all being released?

RazTK said:

@GreyGhost: It's a picture of some of the weapons that were used to attack our soldiers, fool. I promise you, they already have many of those in the strip.

I knew that - many of those weapons appear to be hastily improvised and your sarcasm detector is broken. It's a well-known but often ignored fact that truth is one of the first casualties of any conflict so I tend to view media reports with a degree of scepticism, especially if they're from sources with a known bias - that includes the "Honest Reporting" video you linked to.

Like it or not, the IDF has gained a reputation for belligerence, which is due at least in part to continued unconditional support from Washington. I don't know who decided that the state of Israel couldn't be allowed to fail but wouldn't be surprised if they're part of the christian fundamentalist putsch in the US. Heh - some of those people regard jews as lapsed christians who are defending their holy lands from moslem incursion until the second coming of Christ.

[Maes]

GreyGhost said:

If the people on the aid ships are terrorists - why are they all being released?

Not before making them sign official "confessions" of being terrorists, thus opening them up to a whole new world of shit. Those who didn't sign them weren't released promptly.

[DooMAD]

RazTK said:

Terrorism will be fought everywhere.

Funny how no one else seems to see it that way. Maybe if you were one of the thousands of people made homeless and impoverished by the Isreali government, you might see things a little differently too.

[Sharessa]

RazTK said:

Terrorism will be fought everywhere.

Oh, so it's terrorism now. Great, the instant-blame-shifting catch-all word of the new millennium. Pretty soon, committing any crime or disagreeing with anyone will be considered "terrorism".

[Maes]

Danarchy said:

Pretty soon, committing any crime or disagreeing with anyone will be considered "terrorism".

If you try to distill the strictest definition of the term, it would read something like:

"Using deadly force while striking covertly, insicriminately and without warning without belonging to a recognized combatant unit (the illegitimacy element".

The first part of the definition is the "terror" and "deviousness" part of the deal. A terrorist is supposed to be cowardly, strike "easy" targets, and aim to cause sensation, rather than obtaining direct tactical/strategic gain

However the second part is essential too, as many e.g. Elite Commando units, black ops, spies etc. use very similar tactics but their actions are not considered terrorism because they belong to an otherwise "legitimate" side.

So e.g. a Palestinian blowing himself up inside the first Israeli bus he finds = terrorism, while an IDF pilot carpet bombing a Palestinian refugee camp as per official orders = a hero.

Why? First of all, there's no recognized "Palestinian state" or "Palestinian army", and none would call suicide bombers "elite commandos" (even if the most fanatical and extreme of elite commandos would sacrifice themselves to accomplish their mission). Then there is no proper "target" (they target buses full of what Israelis consider civilians, which give them no immediate tactical advantage), while when IDF strike back they are very careful to label their targets "enemy installation", "illegal combatant groups" etc. and to cause actual damage to what they perceive supports the "enemy combatants". In that sense, the aid convoys were a prime target, as cynical as it may sound.

By extension, anyone actively supporting terrorists can be labelled a "terrorist" himself, and yeah, pretty much anyone annoying you too much can be labeled as such. E.g. the Germans in WWII called Cretans "terrorists" and the resistance in other parts of Greece "bandits" because they got their ass kicked, and also to avoid the inconvenience of having to treat them under the Geneva convention articles.

So the label of "terrorist" is also a political one, other than one applying to methods or actions. In theory, if you donate as little as one cent to a Palestinian organization, you can be labelled as as "terrorist" and "enemy of Israel".

[RazTK]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3901662,00.html

[Remilia Scarlet]

RazTK said:

Terrorism will be fought everywhere.

A KMFDM shirt I once saw said:

Terrorism Is The Poor Man's
War
Is The Rich Man's Terrorism

I sort of think it already is.

[Aliotroph?]

What? Hamas has to allow things to enter? They get a choice? Perhaps Israel should bomb them with aid. That would look funny on TV. :D

[Maes]

If you were Hamas, would you allow anything touched/manipulated by Israeli hands to go through without as much as a shadow of a doubt?

[dew]

Maes said:

If you were Hamas...

you should be treated as taliban or al-qaeda. even palestine-funding eu recognizes them as a terrorist organization, their official policy is to destroy israel... uh. the aid convoys should focus on the 'helping innocents' part and not even mention the word hamas. i wonder how turks would react if someone started shipping help to kurds with such media coverage.

[RestlessRodent]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OFAUeZE2ww

[John Smith]

You're really getting desperate arent you Ghostly.

[Maes]

dew said:

Stuff about terrorist status of Hamas.

The label of "terrorist" is mainly a political one. Compare with UCK and how they got "upgraded" from terrorists to "liberation army" and "freedom fighters" when their actions happened to match/be compatible with the US/NATO interests in the area. And that was done at the expense of a sovereign state, resulting in the clusterfuck that's Kosovo today. Kinda like Israel/Gaza in reverse.

Rest assured that if Turkey (unlikely) or Israel (extremely unlikely) fall out of the favour of the USA, the Kurds and Hamas respectively will be among the first ones to be "upgraded" from terrorist status to something more acceptable. How very convenient. Good old divide and conquer.