Free look

[40oz]

XBLA topic is getting derailed. ANYWAY...

I personally don't use freelook. Here are my reasons:

1. Software is my preferred renderer, and the software method of looking up and down is kinda weird.

2. I don't want to have to stretch the sky to keep it from repeating.

3. I like to handle my keyboard as if it were a game controller, using both the keyboard and the mouse to handle the few controls doom has seems unnecessary.

I think it's cool if you use freelook, even if I'm playing deathmatch against you. Only problems I've got with it are

1. Skulltag doesn't allow autoaim for the railgun. Not even on monsters.

2. Don't tell me I'm "limiting my potential" by using only the keyboard. I'm just as good using keyboard only as many of the known players on skulltag. Using freelook or not doesn't make you any better or worse.

[darkreaver]

I dont use free look. I used to like it, but I turned away from it. Actually its also kinda liberating (ironic? yes) to be able to look horizontally only.

Also, many maps arent designed for free look. I mean, if my maps where intended for free look Id most certainly changed lots of the monster placement

[myk]

40oz said:
Using freelook or not doesn't make you any better or worse.

It still might mean the difference between winning or losing. If you're on an online server and everybody is using free look, and free look is beneficial due to the map structure, you will be at a disadvantage. It might be useful, for example, to shoot projectiles down or up a hall with varying heights or to do rocket jumps.

[Mr. T]

To me, freelook isn't very useful in Doom. You already have autoaim on the y axis so BFD.

Online is a different matter, but Doom's DM isn't that great anyway. I tried out Odamex and the admin started using IDDQD (yawn)

[40oz]

myk said:

It still might mean the difference between winning or losing. If you're on an online server and everybody is using free look, and free look is beneficial due to the map structure, you will be at a disadvantage. It might be useful, for example, to shoot projectiles down or up a hall with varying heights or to do rocket jumps.

I don't have anything to say for rocket jumps, but in maps with extraneous height differences, no free look is usually pretty beneficial, since i only have to aim at a player on the x-axis, it's no different if the player were on flat land. A lot of doom's combat takes place on flat land for the most part anyway.

[Dragonsbrethren]

I really can't say why, but I just like the feel of Doom better without it. I don't think it's a purist thing, I started out playing with it and usually had it on in any port that supported it up until recently. I play just as well with it on as off, regardless of autoaim. I just like the fixed viewport, like darkreaver said it's a bit liberating to have one game that plays differently from everything else today in terms of aiming.

What I really dislike is vanilla Heretic, Hexen, and Strife's keyboard look only. I've never been able to come up with a decent setup for those keys. They don't really require it though, so I play them like I do Doom.

[RestlessRodent]

I manually up/down freelook. As in I press buttons on my keyboard.

Mr. T said:

To me, freelook isn't very useful in Doom. You already have autoaim on the y axis so BFD.

Online is a different matter, but Doom's DM isn't that great anyway. I tried out Odamex and the admin started using IDDQD (yawn)

Get a bunch of people and start a new game, if the admin can use cheats you can also.

[myk]

40oz said:
in maps with extraneous height differences, no free look is usually pretty beneficial, since i only have to aim at a player on the x-axis, it's no different if the player were on flat land.

With hitscan attacks, that is true, but with projectiles, you can anticipate their movements with mouse look, while without it the missiles go straight and not down or up to the level of the targets, unless autoaim clicks, which may itself not be what's desired if the enemy is moving.

[wildweasel]

I hate relying on autoaim, because it always aims where I don't want to shoot. Imagine my distaste if I'm trying to aim a rocket at a Hell Knight on a high ledge, and it instead aims at the (much closer!) zombie on a ledge slightly lower than myself. At this point, I switch autoaim off completely so that my death is not caused by the game assuming that I want to target the closer of two enemies.

[TimeOfDeath]

I use freelook on ZDoom maps (always mouselook + never autoaim) and the dot crosshair, in software mode. I don't use it for vanilla/limit-removing/boom maps (I play them with prboomplus).

[myk]

WildWeasel said:
At this point, I switch autoaim off completely so that my death is not caused by the game assuming that I want to target the closer of two enemies.

I do that in chess, too. If at one point I find the diagonal movement of the bishop limiting, for example, I make it do an L move like the knight :p

Not that I'm telling you to use vanilla behavior if you like free look, but while you can consider it "senseless," many times the level being played was tested with such a setting. Yes, the game "forces" you to hit the zombieman, but more so if you are careless and don't anticipate that the zombie is getting in the way. Mostly, you can move aside or shoot at another target. A fixed vertical view with autoaim may not be realistic, but it's still rules one can work with.

[Malinku]

I like to use autoaim with freelook when playing dm online.
for coop I use just freelook
and for sp I just use normal doom(2).exe settings

[RestlessRodent]

Freelook and aiming in Doom is kinda of hacky. In reality freelooking is moving the view window up and down, whereas shooting requires a difference in the angle.

[Abyssalstudios1]

Oh, so that's why I whoop your ass every time I see you in Skulltag...

Sorry.

Are we talking about freelook as a tool to look up/down only?

[InfraRed]

perhaps i should have been clearer on the point i was trying to make on the XBLA topic even though i did say MAP!!! I still like sparking discussions regardless.

for the record, i've never had any reason to even touch a mouse while playing doom at any point and in any incarnation.

[RestlessRodent]

Freelook doesn't work that great with autoaim unless it's smart autoaim that shoots what you intended to target and not the closest target.

Abyssalstudios1 said:

Oh, so that's why I whoop your ass every time I see you in Skulltag...

I don't play Skulltag, so you just made yourself look like an idiot.

[Abyssalstudios1]

I was talking to 40oz.

[Captain Red]

myk said:
I do that in chess, too. If at one point I find the diagonal movement of the bishop limiting, for example, I make it do an L move like the knight :p

Not that I'm telling you to use vanilla behavior if you like free look, but while you can consider it "senseless," many times the level being played was tested with such a setting. Yes, the game "forces" you to hit the zombieman, but more so if you are careless and don't anticipate that the zombie is getting in the way. Mostly, you can move aside or shoot at another target. A fixed vertical view with autoaim may not be realistic, but it's still rules one can work with.

That's all well in good if you see Doom as a big puzzle and like abusing the quirks of the engine to do better at speed running or whatever, but some of us play Doom because we like the atmosphere and the find the idea of slaying demons with modern-ish weapons is pretty cool. Being able to look around and aim selectively helps with the immersion.

[Csonicgo]

Mr. T said:

Online is a different matter, but Doom's DM isn't that great anyway.

WTF am I reading

[Graf Zahl]

If there weren't ports with freelook and switchable autoaim I wouldn't play Doom anymore.

[wildweasel]

myk said:

A fixed vertical view with autoaim may not be realistic, but it's still rules one can work with.

Same goes for aiming where I fucking want to aim, as opposed to having my rocket be at the complete mercy of an automatic targeting system.

I honestly don't see how freelook breaks anything as long as autoaim is turned completely off.

[GreyGhost]

To me freelook's very handy for sniping at enemies that are out of autoaim's range, at closer quarters it makes the grenade launcher in NeoDoom a more potent weapon.

[Dragonsbrethren]

The autoaim comments are kind of strange to me. Doom is one of (maybe the only) FPS where the autoaim does exactly what I want it to do. I switch it off in everything else, but I've never had a problem with it in Doom.

[Graf Zahl]

WildWeasel said:

Same goes for aiming where I fucking want to aim, as opposed to having my rocket be at the complete mercy of an automatic targeting system.

I honestly don't see how freelook breaks anything as long as autoaim is turned completely off.

You might be able to shoot switches that'd be out of range normally - or aim at monsters that are too far away for the crappy autoaim (not that I'd bother about either...)

[Phml]

I use freelook on ZDoom maps (always mouselook + never autoaim) and the dot crosshair, in software mode. I don't use it for vanilla/limit-removing/boom maps (I play them with prboomplus).

Same, albeit for me it's GZDoom and GLBoom+. Freelook with autoaim just feels gimmicky to me.

Same goes for aiming where I fucking want to aim, as opposed to having my rocket be at the complete mercy of an automatic targeting system.

I honestly don't see how freelook breaks anything as long as autoaim is turned completely off.

I honestly don't understand your second sentence. As you said yourself, freelook allows you to aim where you want to aim all the time. That's a pretty significant advantage. Without autoaim, height variation, demons and lost souls are almost irrelevant or at least much weaker ; not to mention traps specifically designed under the assumption the player has autoaim on.

If you're playing a ZDoom map balanced with that in mind it's all well and fine, on vanilla/boom maps it makes a sizeable difference though, sometimes to the point of turning difficult encounters into snoozefests.

Besides, if freelook didn't give any sort of advantage, why would anyone use it ? Immersion ? I doubt many people play Doom with walking only and never strafing because running so fast wouldn't be realistic...

Don't tell me I'm "limiting my potential" by using only the keyboard. I'm just as good using keyboard only as many of the known players on skulltag. Using freelook or not doesn't make you any better or worse.

That is a terrible argument to make. There's lots of players, each of them with a different skill level, to be able to do as good as "many" players with just the keyboard doesn't say anything about keyboard vs keyboard + mouse, much like being able to beat kids at basketball using only one hand doesn't mean using one hand is as good as using two hands.

[dew]

40oz said:

2. Don't tell me I'm "limiting my potential" by using only the keyboard. I'm just as good using keyboard only as many of the known players on skulltag. Using freelook or not doesn't make you any better or worse.

in all honesty... yes, you do. the main advantage of a mouse user is much faster and more precise turning and aiming at his opponent. keyboarders tend to be far worse with hitscan weapons.

your inability to use mouselook to aim up and down won't limit you if you stick to oldschool servers that disallow it to everybody, that's obvious. the disadvantage won't be very noticeable on flat maps, too. but not being able to spam rockets/plasma to different height levels is a serious disadvantage in newschool duels.

that said, i always use mouselook when allowed, but i don't like it much in vanilla coop/single player wads, it wasn't meant to be played that way. i won't ever touch crap like map01 or judas dm servers with mouselook enabled.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Not that I'm telling you to use vanilla behavior if you like free look

Comparing it to chess is doing exactly that. (not to mention that freelook w/o autoaim is actually harder rather than easier, since you have to aim yourself instead of letting a machine do it for you)

Yes, the game "forces" you to hit the zombieman, but more so if you are careless and don't anticipate that the zombie is getting in the way. [/B]

And what about the many cases where you can't see the zombie? (possibly due to the limitation of not being able to look down) Or maps with places where you'll die because you can't hit the revenant in the middle due to a pit full of spectres with no room to step back etc.

That's the big annoyance caused by such settings, and I for one am glad to see the back of them. (and tbh I find it more skillful to take down mobs without any form of aiming help at all)

(edit: code typo)

[Gez]

myk said:

I do that in chess, too. If at one point I find the diagonal movement of the bishop limiting, for example, I make it do an L move like the knight :p

Not everybody sees Doom as perfectly analogous to chess.

Anyway, your example seems like a ChessHackEd patch to me. It's giving the bishop's move state the knight's movement codepointer. So it's still vanilla-compatible chess I'd say. :p

[purist]

I prefer mouselook without auto-aim because it feels like I'm more in control of the game. I used to love playing Doom before ports and mouselook came along though so I have no bad feeling against auto-aim or anyone who uses it.

DM is slightly different I suppose - although I don't play myself. As long as everyone knows it is a freelook, auto-aim or mixed game then no one can really complain.

[HackNeyed]

I don't care much for Freelook in Doom. Sure, I'll use it if the level was designed for it but otherwise I feel more comfortable with it off. When this discussion began in the XBLA topic I instantly remembered the following quote and how it resonated with me.

That BioShock Guy said:
Doom feels more like 1st person Robotron than a modern FPS

Exactly. Fast paced Robotron/Smash TV/Geometry Wars from the first person and with level design. It's one less control to account for allowing a less cumbersome twitch play style. Yes on occasion the Autoaim can be a hindrance but the majority of the time it allows me to focus on a larger number of monsters from a multitude of directions and at varying elevations. Besides, that's how most levels we designed and tested.

All that being said I do prefer the opposite setup in Quake where I always use Freelook and always disable Autoaim to allow for a better sense of control over the game. I also use Freelook + Autoaim in Duke3D though the implementation is not ideal. Heretic and Hexen both allowed Freelook via the Keyboard so I use Freelook with the mouse often though usually through a toggle.

Bottom line, if a game was made with polygons I will prefer Freelook and less/no Autoaim however if it was made with sprites then I might tolerate some Freelook and generally leave Autoaim alone.