The de-evolution of user interfaces

[Quasar]

Why does it seem like every "innovation" out of Redmond leaves us with programs which are increasingly more irritating and less functional than their predecessors?

Here's what has me pissed off:
http://eternity.mancubus.net/pics/bullshit.png

This red-circled box here, this is complete and utter bullshit. Why? You can't type in it. What happens when you enter text into textboxes these days? You get a drop down list which narrows down the possible choices as you type more into it, right? Everything from IE to fucking Office has done this for a few years now.

But not Visual Studio 2008. It seems to think that only allowing you to type at most a single letter to jump to the start of items in the list that begin with that letter is sufficient. I think from the screenshot you can see it is emphatically NOT.

Evidently programmers don't need shortcuts. I'm so fed up with this shit that I'm about to go back to fucking 6.0, which is three whole generations prior, for doing development, because even *it* had a box into which you could type functions names. I just cannot stand the snail's pace that not having the ability to easily jump within my source code to which this crap shackles me down.

[Maes]

Quasar said:

Evidently programmers don't need shortcuts.

Because we are supposed to be more 1337 and/or awesome than non programmers, amirite?

[printz]

Maes said:

Because we are supposed to be more 1337 and/or awesome than non programmers, amirite?

Because everything is dumbed down, so no fool gets clueless :)

Everything is made simple and minimalistic. I really want this minimalistic age to end, and start to do things comfortable again.

Other annoying examples: Sound Recorder is now Exactly a recorder -- nothing else (with the excuse that you can do more than a minute now -- big deal!). Paint looks sleekier now, at the cost of not really supporting 256 color bitmaps any more (the kind that XWE exports), also giving annoying mouse-capturing resizer dots to drawing objects -- in a raster-based drawing environment -- and even doing antialiasing if I'm not careful (which is unwanted if I edit game graphics).

The "File Types" Windows dialog box has fewer choices to edit -- I once made the mistake to assign PK4 (or PK3) files to Windows Explorer (via Open With...), and upon opening them, I flooded the system with ongoing Explorer processes (instead of browsing them as ZIP files as I guessed). The only way to remove the Explorer assignment from the filetype was the Registry. When running Windows XP, all I did was to edit Folder Options/Fyle Types at "Compressed (Zipped) Folder" to include the PK4 and PK3 extensions. No such entry to be found in Windows 7. They're like hardcoded, or hidden in the registry.

At least so far, Microsoft Office's weird new interface hasn't disappointed.

FAKE EDIT: Does Microsoft listen to its users? Maybe you can contribute by mentioning the lack of edit-box there.

[gggmork]

Hmm, maybe new software versions (visual studio 2005 vs 2003 etc) are more about making an illusion that there is a new better thing you should buy, so they don't lose sales from used copies, instead of actually making a new better thing.
Kind of like college text books. Can't sell my used 13th edition because the teacher requires the 14th edition which had to fix a double 'the the' typo, intentionally put in there as an excuse for another edition. And the teacher probably wrote the book so has motivation to sell it and it probably sucks.

[Scet]

I didn't even know that box was there, probably because you're right about it being useless. It's hardly worth going back to VC6 considering how broken its compiler is.

One thing I still don't understand is how Visual Studios Intellisense can be so broken. Yeah C isn't the easiest language to parse, but there are free editors that do a better job. Often times I'll start typing and absolutely nothing will show up. Although VC still has the best debugger, which is why I use it.

If you want to see a truly awful programming IDE, give CodeWarrior a try. You'll be bald from tearing out your hair in the first hour.

[Quasar]

Scet said:

One thing I still don't understand is how Visual Studios Intellisense can be so broken. Yeah C isn't the easiest language to parse, but there are free editors that do a better job.

It seems that IntelliSense bases its scopes for functions on a line number basis, so that if you change the function for instance by extending it toward the bottom, into lines that were previously inside another function, it has to reparse. This takes place in the background on a very low-priority thread.

The problem is, this is the natural way people write code. You don't go to the bottom and type some stuff, and then go back to the middle most of the time. You write from the top down. So why then is it designed in such a way that natural code writing is its least efficient case? It's just stupid.

I have found a possible workaround though, and that is to jam on the enter key to put a lot of blank lines into your function, and then put some semicolons on the very last line. Wait a few minutes and IntelliSense should now consider this giant waste of whitespace to be part of the function you're working on, and with luck (it seems inconsistent sometimes), it won't reparse every time you start a new line.

[Gez]

Speaking of IntelliSense, I wonder why it works perfectly well with my ZDoom, GZDoom or Eternity projects; but not at all with my Slade3 project. Things like "go to definition", "go to declaration", "call browser" etc. never find anything in Slade unless it's on the same page; whereas with the other projects it's reliable.

[Quasar]

Gez said:

Speaking of IntelliSense, I wonder why it works perfectly well with my ZDoom, GZDoom or Eternity projects; but not at all with my Slade3 project. Things like "go to definition", "go to declaration", "call browser" etc. never find anything in Slade unless it's on the same page; whereas with the other projects it's reliable.

It doesn't happen to be a Managed C++ project does it? Because IntelliSense was completely disabled for Managed C++ in 2008, to great uproar from the majority of the Visual Studio user community who use managed C++ to interface between legacy code and newer C# stuff.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

It's all about conditioning new users to use a few specific methods for doing anything (including software development iirc, via appdata) and not have a desire to poke around and discover stuff like they could in older software (including Windows itself)...regardless of how much it pisses off those of us who are used to the latter.

In other words, control.

[Gez]

Quasar said:

It doesn't happen to be a Managed C++ project does it? Because IntelliSense was completely disabled for Managed C++ in 2008, to great uproar from the majority of the Visual Studio user community who use managed C++ to interface between legacy code and newer C# stuff.

Nah, it's a cross-platform wxWidgets/C++ thing, and I'm using VC++ 2005 anyway. (Slayer uses CodeLite on Linux and VC++ 2010 on Windows.)

[RestlessRodent]

Quasar said:

Why does it seem like every "innovation" out of Redmond leaves us with programs which are increasingly more irritating and less functional than their predecessors?

Here's what has me pissed off:
http://eternity.mancubus.net/pics/bullshit.png

This red-circled box here, this is complete and utter bullshit. Why? You can't type in it. What happens when you enter text into textboxes these days? You get a drop down list which narrows down the possible choices as you type more into it, right? Everything from IE to fucking Office has done this for a few years now.

But not Visual Studio 2008. It seems to think that only allowing you to type at most a single letter to jump to the start of items in the list that begin with that letter is sufficient. I think from the screenshot you can see it is emphatically NOT.

Evidently programmers don't need shortcuts. I'm so fed up with this shit that I'm about to go back to fucking 6.0, which is three whole generations prior, for doing development, because even *it* had a box into which you could type functions names. I just cannot stand the snail's pace that not having the ability to easily jump within my source code to which this crap shackles me down.

I havn't touched VC9 in ages but, isn't that drop down used to go to a certain function in that file?

[Quasar]

GhostlyDeath said:

I havn't touched VC9 in ages but, isn't that drop down used to go to a certain function in that file?

Yes it is. But it has taken the place of a box which in Visual C++ 6.0 allowed you to type in the name of any global function in the program, reducing the number of matches as you went, until you matched one in full, at which time you could press enter to be taken to it.

There is no analogue to that box left in the UI that I can find. The closest thing might be the Search tool on the class view, but it, predictably, has no autocomplete, making it essentially useless as a shortcut to anything.

[sirjuddington]

Gez said:

Nah, it's a cross-platform wxWidgets/C++ thing, and I'm using VC++ 2005 anyway. (Slayer uses CodeLite on Linux and VC++ 2010 on Windows.)

That's the main reason I switched up to 2010 from 2008 - it's code completion actually works with wxWidgets (finally). It's actually quite nice overall, only real problem being it's compiler is slow (seems to happen with every new VS release, the compiler just gets slower and slower)

Also, CodeLite has a function search feature :P

[Maes]

Touch Screens. They were little more than a weird craze in the 80s, like light pens, but they are only OK for occasional use in e.g. ATMs or casual games. For the rest I've only seem very poor implementations like e.g. cell phones lacking a permanent keyboard and so when you had to send a tone during a call you had to remove the phone from your ear, access a "display keyboard" function and select the key...instead of just feeling for the bumps on the "5" key and locating the correct key without even moving your phone. Meh.

And let's not even mention playing e.g. Doom with your fucking fingers covering the screen...I sincerely hope that is NOT the future of gaming and user interfaces.

[Trilinear]

VS 2010 is even worse in terms of removing customisability that was previously available (thanks mainly to the transition to WPF rendering for the UI, causing MS to rewrite a lot of older rich functionality we ended up taking for granted.)

I used to get all worked up about minor UI changes years ago, nowadays I just grin and bear it. Compromises always end up being made in the name of "progress", particularly when new versions of VS come out. This is why it's important to participate in the public Betas, and voice your concerns on Microsoft Connect (and they do listen, if you tell them what you're gripe is.)

At the same time however, each new version often ends up adding a lot of very useful functionality. It's just unfortunate that the UI has to suffer at the same time.

My suggestion? Write your own VS addins to bring back the behaviours you miss. Also check out the Visual Studio Gallery (for 2010), which are WPF-driven addins AFAIK. A good example is the theme editor, that allows you to change the god-awful 2010 UI back to something resembling a conventional Windows application.

[Cutman]

Maes said:

Touch Screens.

Agree 100%. I especially fucking hate touch screen keypads with a burning passion. I bought a HTC Dream which was the best thing ever until it died. It was near the end of my contract so they offered to upgrade to the HTC Hero, which was the next big HTC phone out. Looking into it I noticed it lacked a keyboard. I was like "Well I suppose I should join the rest of the world" so I said ok fine and AHAHAHAHAAHAHA How bloody wrong I was.

The HTC Hero is a dumbed down version of the Dream. The menus are prettier, animations are nicer, you get more room for stupid apps but damn is it LAGGY. The mp3 player stutters like hell if there's more than 2 things open (I can see why the iPhone can only run one thing at a time now), but I never had that problem with the Dream. The touch screen keyboard is sooo flimsy, it's beyond a joke. You can't even rotate the screen and make the keys bigger like with the iPhone. Trying to phone people is unreliable too, sometimes it takes about 3 minutes to actually start dialing anything if there's something running in the background sneakily, and even worse is when it just lags out completely and I have to restart it.

The BIGGEST annoyance with the phone is that the alarm sometimes just doesn't go off. And no it's not a user error, the alarm function is bugged. That's nice. I can be late for work and have trouble calling my boss to say I'm going to be late too.

[Aliotroph?]

Well, I can't see that pic. I get a timeout.

I could never go back to VS6. There was the only editor on the planet that specifically disabled bold fonts. WTF I went to edito some olde VB6 code on my current computer and discovered I couldn't select a bold font. I googled the problem and the only solution that came up was one I posted on Newdoom when I had the same problem a year before. (The solution is to dig around until you find a bold, fixed-width font it doesn't know about and install that as a Windows font -- Adobe Reader comes with one).

I've also noticed the compilers getting slower and slower. It took a long time for me to start using .NET simply because I didn't have a computer fast enough to run it efficiently. I can't complain too much I suppose. MS added enough convenient things to the editor to make it much nicer to use. I haven't tried 2010 yet.

Windows Explorer has also been losing customizability for a while. XP got rid of the ability to set profiles for the colour schemes. That was a useful accessibility feature. Aero cripples the user's ability to change the colours at all. I often end up turning it off altogether and using the increasingly hackish and ugly classic style.

[printz]

Maes said:

Touch Screens.

I like touch screens because they remind me of Doom 3.

[Gez]

printz said:

I like touch screens because they remind me of Doom 3.

Yeah, that's a good point. Touch screens in real life are about as fun as being stuck in real life on a labyrinthine and malfunctioning space station, full of shifty paranoid people, right before monsters come in from nowhere and kill everyone, turning the mutilated bodies into ravenous shambling ghouls.

[Graf Zahl]

Touchscreen are a spawn of evil. Just because Apple did them doesn't mean that they are good. Unfortunately all of Apple's slaves disagree.

[Aliotroph?]

I find them quite nice for phones. Apple did a good job making sure the UI works for most common things on a phone. Some phones with keyboards are a bit easier to type on, but I find their screens unreasonably small in most cases.

One of my friends bought a touch-screen phone from Samsung. I should see if he can get a firmware update for it because the thing is useless. The clever scrolling through pages of icons that Apple managed doesn't even work right on that thing. Wherever your finger stops it clicks! GAH! Useless hunk of junk.

Now touch screens for much else besides kiosks are useless. Holding your arm up in front of your screen all day is a stupid and tiring plan.

And why did they pick a touchscreen for the iPhone? Ever seen how often the trackball on a Blackberry gets stuck? Ugh!

[Maes]

Aliotroph? said:

Some phones with keyboards are a bit easier to type on, but I find their screens unreasonably small in most cases.

Dunno...seems that at least brands such as Motorola, Nokia and Sony-Ericcson managed to find a good balance between overall phone size and screen/keyboard real estate by now

In early 2000 I recall there were some cell phones on the market which were smaller than anything mainstream sold today (some particular Sharp phone) with the result of having a diminutive screen and near-unusable keyboard unless you were a very runty 5-yo girl. I think anything in the 1"-2" range and a fixed keyboard is OK on a cell phone, only media players or palmtops needs bigger screens and/or touch screen functionality. If a menu tree is so simple that can be navigated just by 2-3 keys, then maybe you don't need a touchscreen at all, and having one is just a single point of failure. Replacement keyboards I've seen...replacement touch-screens, nope.

[Mr. T]

Touch screens are good once you get used to them. My iPhone's glass screen is rugged enough that it's managed to take the punishment I give it a lot better than the rest of the phone, so not being able to get a replacement touch screen is something of a moot point...

[Maes]

Mr. T said:

so not being able to get a replacement touch screen is something of a moot point...

If you consider throwing away hardware anyway after a year max. normal then yeah it's a moot point. But then again discussing anything about Apple products on purely technical grounds is a moot point ;-)

[Mr. T]

OK, now you are talking out your ass. I have had my iPhone for at least 2years now and the screen is holding up fine. Touch screens are one area where technically Apple is the best, so GTFO before you make yourself look even more stupid.

[Maes]

Spoiler

OK, this is ridiculous. Note how I didn't say anything about Apple/iProducts/Macs sucking in this thread, yet I get flamed. Ironic, considering how in a recent thread it was "PC users" that were considered bilious, frustrated and vitriolic.

Mr. T said:

OK, now I'm talking out of my ass.

FTFY. When did I say your iPhone broke down? The original question was about what one is supposed to go in the general case a touch screen breaks down. That includes all devices using one, not just iPhones.

Mr. T said:

Touch screens are one area where technically Apple is the best

Citation needed, and FYI Apple doesn't make them. Fabless manufacturer, anyone? Anyone buying them from the same manufacturer has the same technical merits by definition, unless Apple has an exclusive contract for the particular type of touch screens used on their iPads/iPhones. Again, the burden of proof for that particular case would lay with the claimant, aka, you.

Mr. T actually meant:
I must GTFO before I sound starting like a bilious stupid iFag. Oh noes, too late! I hate you Maes :-( :-( :-( I go now jakk 0ff and listen to some emo music on my iPhone

[Mr. T]

http://www.tipb.com/2010/01/09/iphone-wins-touchscreen-performance-duel-moto-droid-nexus/

"iPhone wins touchscreen performance duel"

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2007/tc20070314_109157_page_2.htm

Secret Partner

And Apple appears to own the patents around this technology, though it seems a patent has yet to be formally issued. Some of the technology appears to have come from a company called Fingerworks, which was founded by two former University of Delaware professors and ceased operations in June, 2005. The founders may now be working with Apple, Reitzes says. Both Apple and Fingerworks are defendants in a patent lawsuit brought in January by Quantum Technology Management, a British outfit that says it owns a patent on "capacitive field sensing" that's being infringed by the two companies.

To build the screens, Apple has partnered with a German company called Balda, best known for making wireless-phone components for companies such as Nokia (NOK). It owns half of a Chinese company called TPK Holding. Balda and TPK, in turn, have formed a joint venture with an outfit called Optera, a unit of Magna International (MAGBF), which specializes in making glass coatings that conduct electricity—exactly the kind of ingredient you want in a touch screen.

That sounds fairly exclusive to me.

[Maes]

Fair enough. At least you backed up one part of your claims with facts, and I can respect that.

The question of what happens if a touchscreen -ANY touchscreen- malfunctions remains open though. My guess: on a device with no other means of input, you're screwed. On a device where it's just a secondary input device, you may still have partial or even full functionality, if the interface fully supports all means of input.

But now, compare your latter post with what you posted before, in both contents and tone. Had I wanted to make a sockpuppet "MacFan" account to make Mac fans look bad, I couldn't have done it any "better" myself.

[printz]

Gez said:

Yeah, that's a good point. Touch screens in real life are about as fun as being stuck in real life on a labyrinthine and malfunctioning space station, full of shifty paranoid people, right before monsters come in from nowhere and kill everyone, turning the mutilated bodies into ravenous shambling ghouls.

Did you never play Doom 3? The UAC technicians replaced all the vintage big buttons, sliders and levers with sleek touchscreens.

[Cutman]

It doesn't matter if iPhone wins awards and what not for the best touchscreen in existence, touch screens still suck in general ESPECIALLY for phones.