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Mr. Freeze

Fuck the ATF

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You cannot kill someone with an airsoft gun but it can do some minor damage, at worst blindness with a stray eye shot.

These retards need to rethink because airsoft guns don't shoot any more than 500fps tops, usually around 350-400 on average.

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Too much to read. Help me understand.
Is this thing a paintball gun?
Are they saying it can be easily modified to shoot live ammo?

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TimeOfDeath said:

Fuck guns. How about that? :D


Tyson runs in doom for now on.

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Bank said:

All this while real guns are looking more and more like toys.

This reminds me of when they banned Megaton action figures that turned into a toy pistol because it looked too much like a real gun.

Now the transformation is just less clever but real. :D

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How could it fire live ammo? It's made of plastic. Wouldn't it end up melting the gun? MY BRAIN HURTS

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Gun control is dumb. Freedom is more important than the few lives saved by eliminating guns from society. That said, the guys who leave guns where their kids can find them deserve to be shot.

I've never used an airsoft gun, but I know they can kill LCD screens. I don't know how hard it will be to convince Dell to cover that under an accidental damage warranty, however.

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What bullshit. Most of their claims are "based" on the fact that the replica has certain parts that are dimensionally identical to those of a real M16. The fact that they are NOT made from weapon-grade steel and that the "weapon" doesn't use standard NATO 5.56mm ammunition doesn't count in the least?

In comparison, the (much more weapon-strict) Italian law states that replicas/prop guns cannot be made with the same grade of materials as real guns, and that's enough to draw the line. If anything, the ATF found an amusing loophole in "weapon" laws.

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Maes said:

What bullshit. Most of their claims are "based" on the fact that the replica has certain parts that are dimensionally identical to those of a real M16. The fact that they are NOT made from weapon-grade steel and that the "weapon" doesn't use standard NATO 5.56mm ammunition doesn't count in the least?

Unfortunately other people won't be able to tell the difference, leading to the use of fake guns instead of the real thing for coercing purposes.

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Boo you can't play with your toy guns... Suck it in or join the army lol

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printz said:

Unfortunately other people won't be able to tell the difference, leading to the use of fake guns instead of the real thing for coercing purposes.


Whatever happened to red muzzle caps that all replical/toys are required to carry, at least in the EU? Despite that, you can find "real" looking airsofts if you look enough.

IMO that's yet another way of telling citizens/preparing the ground for a total legal gun ownership abolition: "If we're throwing such a fit and bitch and moan over TOY guns, imagine how BAD it will be for real ones! Forfeit your 2nd amendment rights, and leave it only to the bad guys to carry guns (and the policemen to "save" you, if they ever catch them). Tertium non datur.".

Believe it or not, reducing the individual's right/ability for lawful self-defense and/or deterrence is a mark of all fascist states: in those regimes, the citizen is thoroughly exposed to the notion that he is supposed to do NOTHING that isn't state sanctioned, including bearing arms and defending himself.

Coercion by a fake gun? That is already an offense and the charge in case of arrest is that of "armed theat", the fact that it is a fake weaponsonly clears you of eventual illegal gun possession/use charges but not of armed threat ones. Don't see how this circumstancial moral panic lobbying by the ATF adds anything to existing legislation, unless once again there were loopholes.

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Aliotroph? said:

Gun control is dumb. Freedom is more important than the few lives saved by eliminating guns from society.

Guns have one purpose and that's to kill, as I've said in literally every gun control thread on Doomworld I don't like that any fucking idiot with a gun can pull a trigger and end a life. I don't care about how responsible all of you gun owners are or how many tests you have to take to get one or how free you need to feel, guns absolutely do kill people and if there were less of them fewer people would be killed.

All these doomsday scenarios where the world ends because a bunch of rednecks aren't holding onto their personal arsenals are ridiculous. If everyone has a gun it just means everyone is gonna shoot each other.

Now in before all the gun nuts tell me what a "hoplophobe" I am and ask me where I learned to fear "harmless inanimate objects."

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I used to do airsoft skirmishes and re-enactments with ex-military and scholarly people, museums, etc. We did Vietnam reenactments, among other things, and used very high end airsoft guns. These, generally, were very mature people who repeated the mantra that even though an airsoft gun was a toy, you should, for safety purposes, treat it like a real rifle. At this point, real high quality replicas were only manufactured in Japan. However, in the past few years, China has started making them, driving the price down, and more little kids to the sport. Previously we were all mostly adults. I have to admit that these kids using toy guns to shoot each other literally, in ways that can cause serious harm, very often forgetting eye protection, worries me. What is also troublesome are the idiots who buy the clear wal mart airsoft guns, paint them black, and use them to hold up convenience stores then promptly get themselves shot by cops who think they have real guns.

Despite these reservations, the ATF's position that these can be used to fire live ammo is ludicrous. Yes, with a ton of money and work, you could likely fire, very inaccurately, one bullet out of these. Which would promptly destroy all of the shitty plastic and pot metal internals (and externals) of the gun. If you want to get the same effect, I suggest you go to your local hardware store and get a bit of PVC pipe. For $10 in materials you can make a safer and more reliable shotgun. Listen, if the ATF wants to ban these, go for the more valid reason of kids getting themselves hurt. I wish they wouldn't ban them, but it's not like I have a hard time seeing how people would get their panties in a bunch.

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Bank said:

Guns have one purpose and that's to kill, as I've said in literally every gun control thread on Doomworld I don't like that any fucking idiot with a gun can pull a trigger and end a life.


With that same logic you should gradually abolish cars, most utensils, and even human hands. E.g. any street thug can corner you and beat you to death with nothing with his bare hands. What will you outlaw then, hands or thugs?

The problem with such moral panicky "Let's abolish guns!" calls is that they imply:

  • Abolishing industrial production of weaponry in general, which is impossible.
  • Destroy ALL existing arsenals and the knowledge to build them again. Aka "make love not war". Also impossible.
  • Leaving some weapons only in the hands of certain picked individuals (law enforcement?) who'll never use them "for bad" purposes. Utopic, and only fascist states try to enforce it, and for a reason.
  • Making laws for legal ownership stricter. This is the only feasible way, but it's useless because it won't make guns in the hands of criminals and thugs disappear, and laws are already pretty strict pretty much anywhere. If you own a gun you're usually better off keeping its existence hidden in most jurisdictions and hoping that you'll never have to use it.
So sorry Bank, there's no "No guns" magical fairy that will suddenly make the world a better place and make all "bad guns" disappear and only leave maybe a billyclub in the hands of a smiling "Protect and serve" cop. Let alone that in such a world, the first one to build a working machine gun will pretty much own.

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ducon said:

What freedom? The freedom to kill?

With an airsoft gun? Hahaha...

printz said:

Unfortunately other people won't be able to tell the difference, leading to the use of fake guns instead of the real thing for coercing purposes.

All airsoft guns I've seen (like other toy guns) have orange muzzle tips so you can tell they're fake 100 yards away. Some that I've seen were even clear. Plus, they are made of plastic instead of steel, which makes them obviously not real when seen up close. Anyone who is dumb enough to spray paint theirs to look real deserves getting shot and/or arrested.

Mr. T said:

Boo you can't play with your toy guns... Suck it in or join the army lol

Yeah, well maybe some people want to fire guns without the risk of accidental death, you moron.

Anyone arguing against gun control in a thread about airsoft guns either doesn't know what AirSoft is or is an idiot.

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Maes covered nearly everything I wanted to say, but I want to stress two points.

1. Fear of guns is a fear of inanimate objects. You might as well be afraid of power tools, cars, bare hands, kitchen knives, darts, or even nerf guns.

2. Your need to FEEL safe does not trump my right to BE safe.

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Maes said:

With that same logic you should gradually abolish cars, most utensils, and even human hands. E.g. any street thug can corner you and beat you to death with nothing with his bare hands. What will you outlaw then, hands or thugs?

The problem with such moral panicky "Let's abolish guns!" calls is that they imply:

  • Abolishing industrial production of weaponry in general, which is impossible.
  • Destroy ALL existing arsenals and the knowledge to build them again. Aka "make love not war". Also impossible.
  • Leaving some weapons only in the hands of certain picked individuals (law enforcement?) who'll never use them "for bad" purposes. Utopic, and only fascist states try to enforce it, and for a reason.
  • Making laws for legal ownership stricter. This is the only feasible way, but it's useless because it won't make guns in the hands of criminals and thugs disappear, and laws are already pretty strict pretty much anywhere. If you own a gun you're usually better off keeping its existence hidden in most jurisdictions and hoping that you'll never have to use it.
So sorry Bank, there's no "No guns" magical fairy that will suddenly make the world a better place and make all "bad guns" disappear and only leave maybe a billyclub in the hands of a smiling "Protect and serve" cop. Let alone that in such a world, the first one to build a working machine gun will pretty much own.


I have never advocated the abolition of all guns, I am however a firm believer in gun control.

ANY asshole can pick up a gun and immediately kill someone. Without training, without knowledge, and without effort. That asshole can end a person's entire life with a single pull of a trigger. The street thug you mentioned might have a lot more trouble beating me to death with his own hands. Personally I'd rather face up against him than some kid in a trenchcoat.

Listen, you're right that there's no magical solution to this problem, but I can firmly say that proliferating guns certainly isn't going to help. If you're so worried about police states and fascism why even have any government? Why have a police force? Why have any body that has authority beyond the public?

Instead of just agreeing that "oh no we'll never keep guns out of the hands of criminals so who gives a shit guns for everyone!" why don't we agree that gun crime is a big problem and take strides towards solving it. I firmly believe that handing out more guns is not that solution. Make guns traceable, give them CD keys or something I don't particularly care, but don't just sit around acting like you don't have to compromise.

Mr. Freeze said:

Maes covered nearly everything I wanted to say, but I want to stress two points.

1. Fear of guns is a fear of inanimate objects. You might as well be afraid of power tools, cars, bare hands, kitchen knives, darts, or even nerf guns.

2. Your need to FEEL safe does not trump my right to BE safe.


1. Bullshit. None of those objects are concealable hand sized weapons that can off someone from a distance. I'm not afraid of guns, but I'm sure as hell afraid of the idiots that use them.

2. My right to feel safe is my right to be safe. Unlike a lot of people I don't believe that I live or should live in some wasteland where everyone needs guns to be safe because it's the wild west yall. My objection is and has always been that guns are too easy a way to end someone's life. Any idiot can use a gun and any idiot can kill ME. Fuck that shit.

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Mr. Freeze said:

1. Fear of guns is a fear of inanimate objects. You might as well be afraid of power tools, cars, bare hands, kitchen knives, darts, or even nerf guns.

2. Your need to FEEL safe does not trump my right to BE safe.

An unloaded gun is an inanimate object, a loaded gun's an accident waiting to happen, as is a car with driver and bare hands are only in animate if they're amputated or attached to a corpse.

If your right to BE safe makes me FEEL unsafe - I'll let you know in no uncertain terms. BTW - boomerang's are also inanimate objects. :P

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Bank said:

I have never advocated the abolition of all guns, I am however a firm believer in gun control.


And what makes you think that existing gun control measures are inadequate? Should gun control also be further extended to toys/props, more than it already is? (Then again, there's a discrepancy here: the EU has very strick "real" gun control, and pretty clear-cut rules for replicas and props. I don't know if in the US it's a total clusterfuck, but I know it's not as liberal as it used to be, and that even there, precise laws exist).

Bank said:

ANY asshole can pick up a gun and immediately kill someone. Without training, without knowledge, and without effort.


So can anyone who gets you down and kicks you savagely in the head or the bottom of the spine or picks up a stick or rock. The very least they'll leave you paralyzed/a vegetable. As to how quickly they can do it, if caught off guard most people go down in as little as 5 seconds, and there's no referee stopping the "match" there and then, you're just a pathetic sack of potatoes getting kicked.

Bank said:

That asshole can end a person's entire life with a single pull of a trigger.


Any asshole can end your life with a slight push on a car's accelerator or a slight delay in applying proper pressure on a brake pedal. Sure, if he was determined to kill you he'd not use a car, and you can't conceal one on yourself....that's what knives are for. Obviously someone shooting you in the face doesn't expect a clean kill and escape, so guns only give a relative "advantage" to circumstancial killing. Premeditated killing can be done with many other tools.

Bank said:

If you're so worried about police states and fascism why even have any government? Why have a police force? Why have any body that has authority beyond the public?


Just like with the weapons, we'd need a "let's all be peace & love" kind of fairy to make all humans friends and brothers...in the meantime most handgun murders in Greece are done either by professional criminals/gangsters, and cops(!) come second (when using it as a means for personal vendettas, not during service). So there goes the "trusted party" theory right there.

Bank said:

Make guns traceable, give them CD keys or something I don't particularly care, but don't just sit around acting like you don't have to compromise.


Guns already have serial numbers, and ballistic forensics are accurate enough to detect two bullets and casing shot by the same handgun (then again, like fingerprints, this is only good as a method of comparative detection vs a database of "known bad" guys or guns).

Bank said:

Bullshit. None of those objects are concealable hand sized weapons that can off someone from a distance. I'm not afraid of guns, but I'm sure as hell afraid of the idiots that use them.


Oh the "forbidden weapon" argument, one that's "too powerful", "too unfair", "too cowardly" too use etc. That has been put forth vs firearms ever since their invention in the middle ages (e.g. Satan's work, Black powder from hell, unfair/unfitting a real warrior, dishonorable to use, a weapon allowing even a filthy peasant to down a noble knight or a loyal archer at His Majesty's service etc.) as it has been vs poisoned arrows or hot oil poured down a castle's gutter. up to nuclear weapons.

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Danarchy said:

With an airsoft gun? Hahaha...


No, with real guns.
In France, airsoft guns are often used by mafia wannabes.

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Maes said:

Guns already have serial numbers, and ballistic forensics are accurate enough to detect two bullets and casing shot by the same handgun (then again, like fingerprints, this is only good as a method of comparative detection vs a database of "known bad" guys or guns).

Yeah, that's all really useful after the gun's been fired and someone's dead.

Maes I'm not going to play this find the conceivable argument game with you, you're absolutely right anything and everything can be used as a weapon to kill or hurt someone. But I'm not talking about anything and everything because the laws governing those things are adequate, guns are weapons. They are manufactured to be weapons. They are not tools, they are not cars, and they are not fists-- they are guns.

I'm tired of this old accountability argument. If a gun's purpose is to fire a projectile then there has to be someone firing it. So yes, guns absolutely do kill people and people ALSO kill people. I don't think that I'm a fairy pushover hippie if I think that instead of just settling on the world is a violent place so lets all be violent we take another look at our gun laws so that fewer people are getting shot, or better yet our laws and the way we handle violent crime so there's a possible future where guns don't need to be in everyone's hands. I'm sure if you asked plenty of anti gun control advocates if they would like to live in a world that didn't require the use of guns they'd say no. Someone's proliferating this thing because someone likes to know he can kill someone if he wants to.

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Bank said:

I don't think that I'm a fairy pushover hippie if I think that instead of just settling on the world is a violent place so lets all be violent we take another look at our gun laws so that fewer people are getting shot, or better yet our laws and the way we handle violent crime so there's a possible future where guns don't need to be in everyone's hands.


What in the blue hell makes you think that laws will be followed?

Criminals do not follow laws BECAUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS. Do you SERIOUSLY think that any additional laws are going to make it harder for criminals to obtain weapons?

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Mr. Freeze said:

Criminals do not follow laws BECAUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS. Do you SERIOUSLY think that any additional laws are going to make it harder for criminals to obtain weapons?


Someone seriously needs to make an ultimate list of every law (EVERY LAW, even ones unrelated to crime) in 2 countries, one with high crime, one with low crime, and compare just how effective each law has been in each country and compare similar laws. Because that logic is as circular as religion and comes up every time gun control is talked about.

Oh and I expect some cross-philosophy with 'if laws weren't effective why should we have a government', possibly from maes.

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