Herculine's Hell

[Herculine]

Greetings marines!

I'm a bit new around here, but I'm actively working on my first ever Doom II megawad, Herculine's Hell and thought y'all might be interested. I have a blog where I post status reports and screenshots of the project and people can also comment and give feedback:

http://herculineshell.blogspot.com/

I'm only working on MAP02 so far, but I've already submitted the finished MAP01 to the archives.

Which brings me to one question: how often is the incoming file checked and the new submissions made available for downloading?

Anyway, I'll keep you all posted on my progress and I'll try not to act like too much of a newbie!

[SyntherAugustus]

Pretty good use of GL lighting.

[marxr]

Looks pretty badass, so far, so good.

[Kira]

Looks nice for a first work, keep it up!

[Phml]

Hey Herculine,

I've read on your blog you mention using GOTHICTX as an external wad file that'd have to be loaded with the wad. I think it's generally a better idea to just put the custom textures you want to use in your wad (or even go the lazy way and merge the whole wad). Lowres textures aren't so big in size to make downloading the whole thing at once inconvenient, and it's much easier to use for the player that way.

[gun_psycho]

I have one question concerning your little megawad: What will the difficulty curve be like? (I know I expect the last few levels to be hard, though)

[boris]

Way too little contrast in texturing.

BlackFish said:

Pretty good use of GL lighting.

I made people cry with my comments on screenshots that rely solely on GL lighting :P

[Herculine]

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

The lack of variety in the texturing is intentional. Each map will have a texture theme. It just makes more sense to me rather than throwing together a bunch of random textures that really don't go together. This also can increase the difficulty level at times as you have to look harder to find things. Also intentional.

The difficulty curve I'm trying to keep as close to traditional Doom II as possible, i.e. easier levels for the first two or three. No levels with ten Cyberdemons and thirty arch-viles, etc.

With regard to the external texture wad, everything I've read in the uploading rules says not to include it with the file. Have those limitations changed since those rules were posted?

Again, thanks to everyone for the input. I'll keep you posted on how the project progresses!

[esselfortium]

Throwing together a bunch of "random textures that really don't go together" is generally a bad move, yes, but that's not what a well-themed map does. Mixing together different materials to create visual contrast and a more interesting color scheme is common to both real-life and virtual structures.

Mixing in different textures doesn't necessarily mean "okay I'll have a marble room here and a wood room over there," but building supports and trims and layering pieces around each other to create more complex, interesting-looking scenes.

[Jodwin]

My first reaction to red and blue was close to WTF, but then I looked a bit more closely to the screens. These two: 1 and 2 look actually somewhat ok despite the unorthodox color combination, but this one looks quite a bit meh to me. I'd say it's because in the first two the water is in a separated, closed pool where as the third one has vertical patches of blue in the form of those waterfalls. If you removed the waterfalls and did something else to break the wall monotony it should look way better (of course, you could use supports to add borders to the waterfalls, but it still might look a little iffy).


With that said about the visuals, from gameplay point of view most of the shots don't look that exciting (then again, showing gameplay in pictures is pretty hard to say the least). Your first map in particular seems to have plenty of large open areas without much opportunity for interesting monster placement (no sniper alcoves, etc), combined with the fact that it's supposed to be map01 and, according to you, easy, doesn't sound too promising. It looks like instead of thinking about gameplay you just wanted to draw some interesting pointy shapes and add monsters later, but I hope I'm wrong.

[40oz]

I think the red and blue looks pretty good. You may have finally created a map where the FIREBLU textures don't look retarded.

[Herculine]

40oz said:

I think the red and blue looks pretty good. You may have finally created a map where the FIREBLU textures don't look retarded.

You're right! But I'm also using the GothicTX resource and it replaces that texture. I've been trying to figure out how to add just some of the textures rather than all of them to my wad but I don't know how. I have Slade and SlumpED, but I can only figure out how to export a single texture with it.

[GreyGhost]

You can open multiple wads in SLumpEd and copy/paste resources from one to another.

Herculine said:

Which brings me to one question: how often is the incoming file checked and the new submissions made available for downloading?

It can take a few days, depends on what other commitments the archive's maintainer has.

With regard to the external texture wad, everything I've read in the uploading rules says not to include it with the file. Have those limitations changed since those rules were posted?

Uploading the texture wad along with your own is unnecessary duplication of an existing resource, adding some of it's patches and/or flats to your wad is another matter. According to this text file you can borrow resources from GOTHICTX so long as it's disclaimer is included in your text file. Also, don't forget to give credit where it's due.

[Herculine]

Thanks! Just moments before coming back to check this forum thread I FINALLY figured out how to copy individual textures from one WAD to another with SLumpED. It took me a couple of hours of pulling out my own hair to do so, but I did! Thanks for the help, and I'll be sure to include in my readme txt any and all credit where it's due.

[Herculine]

Yay! MAP01 is now available for download!

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=16135

[Jodwin]

A little too much backtracking, in the "blood canal" areas there's a lot of times where you are just fighting weak monster in a row in front of you with the chaingun. Also, ALL of your elevators lower when you walk into them, which is, bluntly put, STUPID. For example, in one of those blood canals you have lifts that raise so that you get to some doors on higher ledges. If you go to door 1 first, and then come back and try to walk on the ledge to go to door 2 you can't because the lift lowers the moment you get out.

Similarly there was one room towards the end of the map with a blood pool on middle, stairs in one ends to get up and lifts on all other sides. If you try to walk around the pool you ALWAYS drop down because the lifts lower just because you enter those sectors. That, is bullshit.

And I can't for the life of me see why this is for ZDoom. The only ZDoom feature are a few stealth imps standing on some pillars that are completely useless.

[Herculine]

Okaaayyy... now that you've posted a bunch of insults, do you have anything constructive to say?

[Jodwin]

1) Decrease backtracking drastically
2) Make your hallway fights more interesting and less common
3) Remove those actions that lower lifts by walking on them, because: They are useless, they are only annoying, they piss people off and because you've placed those lifts in places where you can't walk around them, but instead to get to an other part of a room you sometimes have to walk cross a lift which decides to lower and forcing you to wait until it raises back up. DON'T DO THAT.
4) Either make good use or ZDoom features or make this for vanilla or Boom. This map didn't make good use of ZDoom features.

[Herculine]

Somehow people seem to be missing the point that this is only supposed to be the first map of a megawad. It's not supposed to be full of stealth arch-viles. So yeah, only a couple of stealth imps so far. But I can't make MAP30 dependent upon ZDoom and MAP01 vanilla, now can I? It's called planning...

[iori]

Keep making more maps, even if people say they suck and play a variety of maps by different authors to see how other map designers have overcome problems you may have.

[brinks]

I don't see how Jodwin's post was insulting at all. A bit blunt maybe, but that's a good thing IMO. Blunt criticism's much better than peppy sugar-coated crap as it spares you the bullshit and lays the faults out right in front of you. Go ahead and make maps however you want. After all, they're your work. But at least try to listen to advice more experienced members give you. It may be harsh at times, but it'll help you improve in the end.

[Philnemba]

Just played it and its pretty decent for your first map for a megawad however there are some stuff that needs some improvement in my opinion.

- some rooms and hallways felt repetitive a bit in some areas so try to give some areas more variety so they don't look the same.
- Stealth monsters. Get rid of em so it can at least be limit removing or boom compatible.

Anyway, just keep practicing mapping and you'll get the hang of it :D

[Herculine]

brinks said:

I don't see how Jodwin's post was insulting at all. A bit blunt maybe, but that's a good thing IMO. Blunt criticism's much better than peppy sugar-coated crap as it spares you the bullshit and lays the faults out right in front of you. Go ahead and make maps however you want. After all, they're your work. But at least try to listen to advice more experienced members give you. It may be harsh at times, but it'll help you improve in the end.

Clarification:

Saying "Your map is bullshit" is an insult.

Saying "Here's how I think you could improve your map..." is constructive.

[40oz]

Herculine, my first maps sucked hard. People said it too. First map I ever released to the idgames archive got a really harsh /newstuff review. Just keep trying. Take into consideration what people are generally saying about your maps and find out alternatives to prevent those comments in the future. If your map is not a one-hit-wonder, don't keep trying to improve it. Just make more maps. Listen to the people that play them. As of the last several maps I've recieved a lot of good word about them, which is kinda nice but not receiving criticism doesn't really help me to understand what people really think.

I think I've said this before but usually if you get a lot of harsh criticism, that's actually a good thing. Because if your wad is total vomit, people won't even download it. Your lucky you've got this many people to even PLAY your first wad.

[brinks]

Herculine said:

Clarification:

Saying "Your map is bullshit" is an insult.

Saying "Here's how I think you could improve your map..." is constructive.

Clarification:

He said one little tiny thing about the map was bullshit (the lifts), not the whole thing.

Also, he gave you suggestions on how to improve it. Did you really read that post?

[Herculine]

Yes, I did REALLY read that post, as well as all the other posts giving me advice, which I am not at all in objection to considering. I appreciate all the advice, suggestions, and yes the criticisms. But there's really no need to be hostile and insulting about it is there? Okay, so you don't like a detail of my map. Then say: "Hey, I don't like that detail of your map." Don't say: "Hey, that detail of your map is stupid bullshit." Personally, I learned to stop talking to people like that in like the fifth grade.

[Grazza]

Just a suggestion: don't try to make a whole megawad at this point in your mapping career. Start with smaller projects.

Even if you do manage to make a full megawad, your style and outlook will change so much in the course of making it, that you probably won't like your earlier maps by the time you are making the last few. And then you'll have a dilemma, because your whole project is likely to be judged by the earlier maps, and people might not even get to the later maps that you'll be happier with.

Yes, there have been some successful one-map megawads. But they have generally been made by very experienced mappers who were already expert mappers with a highly refined style before they started the project. And in the cases where they weren't, they tended to take years over it, and threw out lots of the early maps during the process.

Notice that your design and engine options are already being conditioned upon ideas for later maps. When you're learning the ropes, you can do without such encumbrances.

Also remember that people here have seen lots of mapsets, and many that never got completed, or failed to live up to their potential. If people are being direct in their criticism, it is probably because they are seeing the germ of problems that have doomed earlier projects.

[Herculine]

Suggestion well taken. I'm already getting the impression that the smaller maps aren't popular. I began the megawad project because one of my unreleased maps was HUGE and I thought sinking all my good ideas into a single map was a bad idea. Now I'm kinda leaning back towards releasing single maps that will never have anything to do with each other.

[Snakes]

Well, you can release as many maps as you want at once. There's my first, the aptly named 4maps, for example, and the second one had 3.

Also, this is a site that, welcome or not, delivers blunt criticism. Grind through it.

Also, what people mean by "more zDoom features" isn't just more stealth monsters. It also includes scripting, slopes, and all that jazz. A wad with no special effects other than stealth monsters (which I, personally, find more frustrating than fun to fight), it seems silly to make it zDoom-specific.

[Jodwin]

For what it's worth, you should be glad that the biggest issues I found were still that relatively small (the first /idgames review is actually mine, and yes, the map did have plenty of nice architectural ideas in it, but the /idgames tends to cut short long reviews so you got the short version there). But still, the things I mentioned are issues and should be looked at. Like Snakes said above me, ZDoom features include much, much more than just stealth monsters. In fact, stealth monsters are one of the worst and most unnecessary of all ZDoom features that exist (Well used stealth monsters do have their place in the world, but 99 % of stealth monsters aren't well used).

Also, I could have probably written a whole essay about texture alignment in your map, but it's just not worth it when you're still working on your first few maps. For now texture alignment might feel like a pointless chore, and that's fine. But keep in mind that sooner you get around to learning it and doing it properly, the sooner your maps start to look not messy.

One last thing: Your map was basically a collections of rectangular rooms (with stuff inside them) connected in a seemingly random fashion. It felt like there was little to no structure or sense of place to the map. I'm not saying it should be realistic, no, but right now is simply feels, well, random. Some of the rooms itself had nice ideas, but when combined the way you had done it feels like you've made a lot of rooms separately and then just somehow put them together in five minutes.