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Herculine

Expanding borders?

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In Doom Builder as I look at the area I'm allowed to build a map inside of it is defined by a red line that forms the border, and getting too close to that line causes lines I'm drawing to snap back to the central area of the map. Is there any way to move those red lines to make the permissible drawing area larger?

I'm a huge fan of huge maps like The Spire and The Spire 2, and aspire to one day create such a huge map, so was just wondering if that red line is the limit and nothing can change it.

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It is a limit of the Doom map format. Using Doom Builder 2, UDMF, and a compatible port, you may be able to go beyond those borders.

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???

I didn't know there was a map size limit. But I guess it's obvious I didn't know being as though my maps are usually pretty small.

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Bloodshedder said:

It is a limit of the Doom map format. Using Doom Builder 2, UDMF, and a compatible port, you may be able to go beyond those borders.


What's UDMF?

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The overall size cannot be expanded without changing half the engine. It's theoretically be possible that a Doom engine based fully on floating point could expand the map size but none of those supports UDMF yet.

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Bloodshedder said:

It is a limit of the Doom map format. Using Doom Builder 2, UDMF, and a compatible port, you may be able to go beyond those borders.

The map may go beyond the border, but you'd need a source port that uses 48.16 fixed point units instead of 16.16 like Doom -- or one that's rewritten to use floating point instead of fixed point.


ZDoom went through a floating point rewrite long ago, but that was discarded for some reason.

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Is it difficult to convert from ZDoom(Doom in Hexen) to UDMF, just out of interest? And are there any forseeable drawbacks/disadvantages to doing so?

Gez said:

...for some reason.


This has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread topic, but I think this is the first time I have ever seen Gez not know something relating to Doom.

Ok, it is hardly a fundamental issue as to why they discarded the ZDoom floating point rewrite, but still. Finally, a crack appears in Gez' MONOLITHIC DOOM KNOWLEDGE

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Indeed it is possible after transitioning to floating point throughout. The Doomsday betas now support maps larger than this, however presently there is no way to take advantage of that fact, as we don't support UDMF.

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I wonder if this limit could be used to create some kind of effect in maps.

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Crashes, weird overflows and generally buggy behavior(e.g. sounds not playing) is what you will get. There's no way to abuse it in a useful fashion.

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Graf Zahl said:

Crashes, weird overflows and generally buggy behavior(e.g. sounds not playing) is what you will get. There's no way to abuse it in a useful fashion.


Unless you use that area for eyecandy only. If memory serves me, depending on the orientation of the map, you can place addition stuff in certain areas outside the "playable" world. Outside this world though, is where strange bugs like noclipping, lack of sound, and the stuff you mentioned take place. So if you block off access to that area, I've found it can be used for placing additional details.

Here's a rough idea of what I mean:

*************xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*           *            x
* The       *            x
*  Playable *            x
*   World   *            x
*           *            x
*************            x
x                        x
x  The                   x
x    Realm               x
x      of Eyecandy       x
x                        x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The playable world is 32767 by 32767 (in ZDaemon at least). I can't remember the exact orientation of the map in order for the "Eyecandy" portion to work right, but in the picture above, it exists to the right and bottom of the playable world. Here as long as visibility doesn't extend all the way to the edges of the "eyecandy world", you can place stuff here viewable from within the playing area. One limitation I've noted is that you can only see as far as 32768ish. Everything past that will HOM up. Just FYI, my experience with this was using DeepSea, which allows maps to be up to an area of 65535 x 65535. Beyond that is when the snapping occurs for me.

Also, to the original poster, are you sure you really want to spend the next half of your life detailing such a large map? I have a 32640 x 32640 map myself that I've been working on and off for four years, and it's moderately detailed at best, and still isn't done. :P

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Well, I don't know exactly how big it might get or how long I might spend on it yet, but just entertaining the thought brought up the question.

Thanks to everyone who has provided answers and info!

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