Quake / Doom Engine

[Doohnibor]

Hi,
has there ever been an attempt to merge Classic Doom into a "real" 3D engine engine? (for example quake 1/2)

To be more precise... 3D engine to build proper room above room, slopes etc. and merge all the classic doom sprites / AI / Textures / "physics" / gameplay ....

I'm not talking about some 3D doom models / weapon mods / or TC. I mean the original Doom gamecode, Monstersprites and art - completely merged. So that it looks and feels and plays like the original... but inside a real 3D engine.


umm... and a few other questions.. I haven't been here since a long time. can someone please recommend a few exceptional (mega)wads? I am only looking for maps without any fancy stuff... like new weapons, game "enhancements", realistic looks etc... just plain Doom! ; ) something like MM 1/2, AV, Hell Revealed, TNT... ; )

a few years ago someone released an excellent Doom1 Episode. The other episodes were planned to follow but the project was dropped. But I forgot the name. Does anyone know what I am talking about? And was this project ever picked up again?
EDIT: Now I remember - The name is "Flashback".

I am still using jdoom. but it has problems with some maps... for example AV 23 or HRII 19. It seems like it cannot handle the "bridges" or whatever the proper name for that is. I always get stuck, fall through and it doesn't render correctly. Is there any comparable engine (by the looks) that does not have this problem and is fairly easy to set up?

thanks : )

[Technician]

I actually always wondered this. Taking the Quake engine and modifying it to Doom's specifications seems like a grand idea. If I remember correctly either jDoom or Legacy actually uses the Quake engine on the mac port or something...

[Philnemba]

Doohnibor said:

has there ever been an attempt to merge Classic Doom into a "real" 3D engine engine? (for example quake 1/2)

To my knowledge there was a Quake mod called "Your Path of Destruction" that is a remake of the original Doom although I'm not sure if it was ever finish or not. Heres a Doom wiki link that has a link to the old website.

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Your_Path_of_Destruction

[sirjuddington]

Vavoom does something like this, although you still need to map for it in the same way as in Doom (ie no *real* 3d architecture and the like).

[Doohnibor]

Philnemba said:

To my knowledge there was a Quake mod called "Your Path of Destruction" ....

I remember this one. It was really really bad. Development started soon after quake 1 came out... and everyone was very disappointed. but like I said, this is NOT what I mean. I do not mean a TC, mod or anything like it. Especially not anything that uses 3D models instead of the origianl sprites.

Think of it like this:
Take the quake source and rip out all the Monster, Art, AI, etc until just the barebone renderengine is left.
Then take the Doom source and do it the other way around.... remove the renderengine but keep Gamecode, AI, Art, Sprites, Sound etc.
Now merge those two together.... that is what i'm looking for.

[myk]

Doohnibor said:
I'm not talking about some 3D doom models / weapon mods / or TC. I mean the original Doom gamecode, Monstersprites and art - completely merged. So that it looks and feels and plays like the original... but inside a real 3D engine.

Part of the reason it feels the way it does is because it's not true 3D. There are different ways to handle such features, though. I'm not too familiar with it but Vavoom incorporates some Quake-like functionality (3D floors and polygonal map rendering). Eternity works the other way around, using extra data and portals to create 3D environments in a 2D framework, which arguably allows it to be more faithful to the original game in feel (even playing original demos when needed).

I am still using jdoom. but it has problems with some maps... for example AV 23 or HRII 19. It seems like it cannot handle the "bridges" or whatever the proper name for that is. I always get stuck, fall through and it doesn't render correctly. Is there any comparable engine (by the looks) that does not have this problem and is fairly easy to set up?

Perhaps Risen3D, a Doomsday offshoot optimized to run vanilla and Boom WADs, may be of help.

[Maes]

Doohnibor said:

I'm not talking about some 3D doom models / weapon mods / or TC. I mean the original Doom gamecode, Monstersprites and art - completely merged. So that it looks and feels and plays like the original... but inside a real 3D engine.

Since I'm undertaking a massive project to make a complete port of the basic Doom game to Java, I have to literally at least glance at EVERY line of code in the SC before translating it to Java (which a C/C++ source port developer shouldn't need to unless something breaks or he is implementing radical changes).

The way Doom works, there is an interconnected clusterfuck of -for the large part- separate but not totally independent modules (the menu screen, the column renderer, the text renderer, the planes renderer etc.) which share a 2D canvas and also need to be "calling" upon each other.

Some handle more than one thing and may need to implement some functionality multiple times over e.g. both the column and the sprite renderers need to support a "low detail" column drawing function, and each does that individually.

Anyway...to cut to the chase if you try to change JUST how the level is drawn (by leaving the sprites untouched) you might be in for a nasty surprise, as the Sprite renderer needs to be aware of the status of the player's FOV (what you see), of BSP tree occlusions etc. so if you decide to get rid of those, you'll have to provide a compatible way for the Sprite renderer to work -or otherwise rewrite the sprite renderer too, and compensate for the odd places in the code where sprite rendering functions are called outside of a pure THINGS context. One of the things I hope to accomplish is to be able to lay down an UML diagram of what depends on what and to what extent, in the Doom engine.

That's why at a certain point it might be easier to make a "recreation" of Doom rather than something that can use the original PWAD data, but then you lose the ability to use PWADs, which is part of what Doom is all about, and IMHO separates "Doom recreations" or "clones" from true source ports.

[Doohnibor]

Maes said:

.........you might be in for a nasty surprise, as the Sprite renderer needs to be aware of the status of the player's.......

hi,
this doesn't surprise me. i did not expect that this would be just a simple cut'n'paste job and that it is by far more effort than it may sound.
my "simple description" was basically just an effort to make my point a little more clear.

to do this thing properly one would probably end up to completely "rewrite" most stuff...

ANYHOW - i think the result would be extremely fun and as a completely new step it would open doors that haven't been available like this for doom until now.
Play Alien Vendetta map 23 and you get a glimpse of what i mean. (it's actually far from breathtaking or anything like that... but you'll hopefully know what i mean)
being able to make REAL 3d maps would open up a whole new dimension to the already still unparalleled gameplay experience of classic doom.
One thing that might make such a "port" a bit easier is the fact that in my personal opinion it does not necessarily need to be able to open and play the original wad format.
there are tons of ports which already do that just fine. It's more meant like a "REAL Doom 3" and the way it might have looked like if they just would have skipped Quake 1 and did a Doom 3 instead of it around the same time. and instead of 3D monster models just used the original sprites from Doom 1 and 2.
I am sure such a thing would be truly awesome!! : )


Myk: thanks for the "Risen3D" hint. I'll give it a try.

[tempun]

Doohnibor said:

ANYHOW - i think the result would be extremely fun and as a completely new step it would open doors that haven't been available like this for doom until now.
Play Alien Vendetta map 23 and you get a glimpse of what i mean. (it's actually far from breathtaking or anything like that... but you'll hopefully know what i mean)
being able to make REAL 3d maps would open up a whole new dimension to the already still unparalleled gameplay experience of classic doom.

The dimension is already open; 3D floors give us everything we need for this. Maybe you should look into mods for GZDoom?

Doohnibor said:

One thing that might make such a "port" a bit easier is the fact that in my personal opinion it does not necessarily need to be able to open and play the original wad format.

Yes, and you'll end up with something like Your Path of Destruction, which is almost forgotten.

[Gez]

Any port with an OpenGL (or Direct3D) renderer provides you with a "real 3D engine". GLBoom(+), GZDoom, Doomsday, EDGE, etc. They're all real 3D engines.

Using the Quake engine with Doom physics is basically what Vavoom does.

Room-over-room effects are generally achieved through portals or 3D floors.

If you want working slopes, room-over-room effects, and a true 3D rendering, you'll want to use either GZDoom or Vavoom. If you don't care for physiqued slopes, you can add EDGE to the list.

[Doohnibor]

Thanks Guys... I think this finally answered my question.

Can someone recommend a Vavoom project that shows off these features but sticks close to classic doom? (i mean something that plays and looks like classic doom besides the 3D features - but without 3D monsters and weapon mods etc)

[kristus]

Gez said:

Using the Quake engine with Doom physics is basically what Vavoom does.

Well, yes and no. Vavoom is one of the few (maybe even only) engines that doesn't use doom physics. It actually got proper physics on all 3 axles.

So basically it is Quake Done Doom. It got the map format, monsters and running speed of the doom guy etc. But everything else is basically Quake. Or more like it used to be. Now it's a bit more advanced than that. If they only could get it a bit more polished, it'd be a quite nice engine.

[zZaRDoZz]

Vavoom is an subject of growing interest to me. Does it not draw sectors along a grid as a true 2.5D engine does? The original quake format had some limits as far as map size and complexity, at least compared to a 2.5D engine. Does Vavoom transcend those limits?

[tempun]

zZaRDoZz said:

Vavoom is an subject of growing interest to me. Does it not draw sectors along a grid as a true 2.5D engine does? The original quake format had some limits as far as map size and complexity, at least compared to a 2.5D engine. Does Vavoom transcend those limits?

It doesn't matter, as anything close to limits would run unbearably slow.

[aldiboronti]

As for Flashback sadly it was never completed. They released 6 maps in the first demo and 4 in the second, that's as far as it got. (One of the authors, Espi, died, although that may have been later and nothing to do with the reason it wasn't completed. I've always thought thses maps are some of the best ever made for Doom.

[Doohnibor]

aldiboronti said:

I've always thought thses maps are some of the best ever made for Doom.

RIGHT!!! Definitely the best ever for Doom 1

The name "Flashback" is perfect, because whenever I play it, it totally reminds me how it felt, playing Doom for the very first time.

I don't give up the hope ; )

[hawkwind]

Risen3D has already been mentioned. It also supports slopes and 3D floors plus other stuff. Try the port and run some of the associated pwads made for it. You won't be disappointed :).

[Gez]

hawkwind said:

Risen3D has already been mentioned. It also supports slopes and 3D floors plus other stuff.

It does? I didn't know. Is there some online documentation about it?

[Nuxius]

Gez said:

It does? I didn't know. Is there some online documentation about it?

Download the "Risen3D v2.2.07 zipped" zip here

Inside the zip, go to "Risen3D/R3D_Docs/Editing"; basic overviews of most of the Risen3D features are in R3D_Types.txt, an extended overview of 3D floors is in R3D_Structures.txt, and an extended overview of slopes is in R3D_Slopes.txt.

Doohnibor said:

Can someone recommend a Vavoom project that shows off these features but sticks close to classic doom? (i mean something that plays and looks like classic doom besides the 3D features - but without 3D monsters and weapon mods etc)

Most of the well known Vavoom mods are by Bryant Robinson, but all of his stuff uses Quake textures with Doom monsters and weapons; it's basically "Doom in Quake in Doom". I do recommend them though, as they are quite good maps.

The only map I can think of that fits your description is "SlayeR's Vavoom Map 1"; don't expect much, though.

[Gez]

Nuxius said:

Download the "Risen3D v2.2.07 zipped" zip here

In other words, the answer is "no, there is no online documentation". I can't really make a link to a file within a zip...

[Nuxius]

It would have helped if you had actually said that was your plan originally, you know.

[DaniJ]

Pretty much everything released for Risen3D comes as a self-installing exe, even the "addons" like Sitters/Abbs 3D model packs and maps. I've no idea why.

[bgraybr]

I found something interesting on this page. Apparently, "during the development of the Quake graphics engine they needed to get some quick levels so they converted some from Doom and released some test screen shots". Do you think that they actually had a program that converted Doom levels to similar Quake levels, or do you think that they just made copies of Doom levels using the Quake level editor?