DTWID: Project is done, check the release thread

[dmdr]

Soz guys, but MajorRawne's criticism is spot on, and I logged on to the forum today pretty much to write the exact same thing.

Processingcontrol, I'm sorry to say that the maps don't really fit in that well, because the constant little tributes to id's architecture make it feel like a tribute wad rather than actual 'lost' maps. I played part of E2 this morning and the constant little nods - m2 was probably the worst offender (mini cratemaze, big green room with all imps in it) - were incredibly distracting. Would id have put these sections in? No, of course not - why would they reference their own maps like that? And frankly, that's more important than the prevalence of this or that texture across a certain episode or when X monster is allowed to appear.

That said, the maps I've played so far have been uniformly excellent in terms of gameplay and challenge. Well done guys.

[Marnetmar]

Cratemaze? I think you're playing the alpha version which is extremely outdated. Download the newest beta, it's at the bottom of page 114 and is much different than the alpha.

[esselfortium]

Yeah, the new e2m2 is totally crate-free.

[dmdr]

OK yeah, fair enough. I got the alpha from the first post a couple days ago. The retexturing job on e2m1 helps a lot there as well.
Although as long as I'm complaining, the new e2m2 has bloody tight ammo. I'm probably missing something somewhere but I ran out of ammo on three separate occasions, and eventually died when I tried to fist a shotgun guy for his four measly shells.

[Reisal]

May I ask why Sendshare? Why not something like Mediafire instead?

[MajorRawne]

I thought Mediafire was supposed to be crap?

[Reisal]

MajorRawne said:

I thought Mediafire was supposed to be crap?

I never had any popups or popunders with Mediafire. Megaupload has good speed but it has annoying popunders.

Anyhow, I plan to record some of the levels and post it on Youtube.

[Marnetmar]

Levels without any DM support whatsoever:

E1M1
E1M3
E1M4
E1M5
E1M7
E1M8
E2M1
E2M2
E2M4
E2M7
E2M9
E3M1
E3M3
E3M7

I really hate to be an asshole, but at this point I could give a shit less about the whole "It's up to the authors" thing. There is a serious problem with this.

[aldiboronti]

Just played the public beta and I swear to God the years fell away from me and my computer turned into a 386! This is seriously good stuff, guys, and I don't think there's one of these maps that would have seemed out of place in the original release. Playing 1.3 now for the third time trying to get at all those secrets (and a secret exit?). Damn, some of them are fiendish, even idbehold isn't helping much! Feels just like the way I kept beating my head against a brick wall in the original 1.3!

[Icytux]

@Marnet, E3M3 is expanded, has multiplayer items placed and DM starts. just have to finish off the skill settings before i upload the new version though.

[Creaphis]

[Megalyth]

Marnetmar said:

Levels without any DM support whatsoever:

...
E2M7
...

Fear not, I'm working on it.

[Avoozl]

I don't remember which version it was but the one I downloaded had the red eyed black gargoyle thing from Doom 64 in one of the maps, why was that in it?

[PRIMEVAL]

Played up to the secret level of Episode 1. Really good stuff! Feels a lot like classic Ultimate Doom without relying on it looking like / copying architecture of UD.

[Wagi]

I love it so far. Nonstop fighting. However:

I got all the way through E1M5 with no issues, but as soon as I hit E1M6 I started having problems finding switches/keys/the doors said switches and keys open, and it left me wandering through these maps for quite a while before I could find my way. The architecture on E1M7 looks a little messy, so that's probably why I was getting lost there.

[Uncle 80]

E1M4:

There is a WR door open/close line that lets you drop into a small secret room with a switch (you can see the blue armour from here)

When the door closes behind you, only the lift part of it can be activated from the inside, leaving you stuck. I doubt this secret even works in vanilla doom, since the door uses 2 actions simultaneously on the same sector. Tested with ZDoom.

Apart from this minor problem, it is a solid map. I had to noclip out of the "stuck" room, but I got 100% secrets in the end - some are well hidden, but still not that hard to uncover if thinking is applied :) I like intuitive secrets.

[phobosdeimos1]

Ok guys, this is gonna sound bad but..

Someone name a DTWID submission that you genuinely, honest-to-yourself would mistake for an actual Sandy Petersen map? Please don't name one for the sake of disagreeing or proving me wrong if you don't like me, be entirely honest for the sake of the project.


Most of the E1s are easily mistakeable for a Romero however

Disclaimer: (In a fat goggle-eyed loser's (me) opinion)

[Marcaek]

This'll sound worse: I think my E2M3 is pretty Sandy-esque, but it's been a while since I played any of the maps so I'd have to go looking to find others.

[esselfortium]

phobosdeimos1 said:

Ok guys, this is gonna sound bad but..

Someone name a DTWID submission that you genuinely, honest-to-yourself would mistake for an actual Sandy Petersen map? Please don't name one for the sake of disagreeing or proving me wrong if you don't like me, be entirely honest for the sake of the project.


Most of the E1s are easily mistakeable for a Romero however

Disclaimer: (In a fat goggle-eyed loser's (me) opinion)

In a quick glance through the DTWID beta's E3, I'd argue E3M2, E3M6, and E3M7 all qualify, at least. Some of the others still could use work IMO, but I don't think I'd agree they're as far off as you suggest.

Sandy's style can be somewhat hard to pin down, really. He tended to be very experimental with his designs, much moreso than Romero, Hall, or McGee I think. Compare the abstract, sickly shapes and flat, linear design of Sandy's E3M4 to his much more orthogonal, height-varied, and nonlinear E2M5, for instance. Trying to interpret a single, coherent style from that is complicated even further by the fact that about half of his contributions in Doom.wad were built around Tom Hall's designs rather than being entirely his own work.

[Alfonzo]

phobosdeimos1 said:

Ok guys, this is gonna sound bad but..

Someone name a DTWID submission that you genuinely, honest-to-yourself would mistake for an actual Sandy Petersen map?

Good! Well. Glad you asked.

Considering this is a community effort, I think it would be unreasonable to expect the goal of the project to be achieved without discrepancy: Indeed, most of the maps here don't succeed completely in fooling me for a Sandy effort. But it's remarkable how close we've come to achieving that goal, 16 authors strong (and discounting over 100 submissions). At first I thought it madness that it wasn't being attempted as a solo project, for surely a single individual would come closest to imitating perfectly a design philosophy - and that remains true, I think - but as a community effort this just goes to show how unified an approach can become given the right incentive, material, and leadership. For that reason, I honestly think this one of the most successful community projects to date alongside others such as Plutonia Revisited; another consistent effort.

Maps e1m1, 3, 5 and 6 would successfully fool me into thinking they were Romero's creations, although I won't lie that esselfortium's own style seems already to go some way toward mimicking the structural/architectural design. Map e1m2 also comes fairly close, what with the geometry hugging itself in that unique way (see stock e1m7) and the curvature of some of the corridors/stairs. Maps e2m3, 5, e3m2 (second half, mostly), 4, 6 and 8 would successfully fool me into thinking they were Sandy creations.

There. Smashing.

[ellmo]

Guys! Guys! Guys?

Looks like I wasn't around for a while and still somehow the project is doing fine. I guess I wasn't as crucial as I'd like to belive I always am.

To the point - I know this may be a little late, since I remember the project's deadline is december something, but Hellbent wrote me a letter (or was it a PM?), with something along those lines:

Dear Santa,

We would like to get a proper list of all the release-candidate-submissions on the submission page, so it looks more up-to-date.

-- your Hellbent

P.S. last year's gift sucked donkey balls.
I'm not planning to be a good lad anymore.

So Santa's been busy slaying dragons in defense of the people of Skyrim, but he's looking into it (as he said he would like a week ago and he actually hasn't done much so far). Expect it soon(tm).

I guess I also should promote some of the most distinguished DTWiD people to the rank of admins on the page, so they can add/edit news, while I'm riding on the back of Slowpoke-the-Steady, battling deagons.

[phobosdeimos1]

esselfortium said:

In a quick glance through the DTWID beta's E3, I'd argue E3M2, E3M6, and E3M7 all qualify, at least. Some of the others still could use work IMO, but I don't think I'd agree they're as far off as you suggest.

Sandy's style can be somewhat hard to pin down, really. He tended to be very experimental with his designs, much moreso than Romero, Hall, or McGee I think. Compare the abstract, sickly shapes and flat, linear design of Sandy's E3M4 to his much more orthogonal, height-varied, and nonlinear E2M5, for instance. Trying to interpret a single, coherent style from that is complicated even further by the fact that about half of his contributions in Doom.wad were built around Tom Hall's designs rather than being entirely his own work.

Great response and I agree

Looking at the examples:

E3M2 would definitely pass, what a FANTASTIC map. It's very look and feel has inspired me, I wish that was the standard all wads aimed towards. It's very original and very Sandy-ish. It actually looks eye-pleasing to me aswell.

E3M6 I don't believe looks or feels like a Sandy Map. It's got that modern design trait in which you match the ceiling or floor texture with the opposite side of the upper or lower texture, making things look more realistic but this was rarely ever used by Sandy (or even romero). Of course it's a great inventive map and fun to play but it just doesn't ring true as Sandy to me. To me I think it could possibly pass for a Shawn Green (maybe?.. anyone?)

E3M7 I have not come to a conclusion on.


Also note, I think some people went a bit overboard with not making orthogonal shapes as rooms and pillars.. I'd say most shapes they used were regular polygons, the most common being octagons. On the other hand there's the whole idea of them going crazy with odd angles once they'd surpassed the Wolfenstein 3d blocks. The proof is in the crack I smoke

[Phobus]

phobosdeimos1 said:

E3M6 I don't believe looks or feels like a Sandy Map. It's got that modern design trait in which you match the ceiling or floor texture with the opposite side of the upper or lower texture, making things look more realistic but this was rarely ever used by Sandy (or even romero). Of course it's a great inventive map and fun to play but it just doesn't ring true as Sandy to me. To me I think it could possibly pass for a Shawn Green (maybe?.. anyone?)

I know it's my own map, so vested interests and all that, but I'd say mine is conceptually similar to a Sandy Peterson map, although perhaps visually a bit too polished to be his work. I'd dare say this doesn't matter though, as people have deemed it id-like before... aside from all the barrel-trap hate, which I will address in a revision tomorrow by using st.alfonzo's suggestion of moving the initial explosion back a bit, giving the player a little more time before it's on top of him, but not too much to take the teeth out of the trap.

[Marnetmar]

Ellmo, you bastard! Get in the IRC, like, now.

[MajorRawne]

phobosdeimos1 said:

Ok guys, this is gonna sound bad but..

Someone name a DTWID submission that you genuinely, honest-to-yourself would mistake for an actual Sandy Petersen map...Most of the E1s are easily mistakeable for a Romero however

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier... why would you want your map to be mistaken for one of Sandy Petersen's maps? If this megawad stands the test of time, don't you want your maps to be remembered as your own? Did the author of the incredible Mishri Halek (AV map 20, IMO the most impressive map ever) want someone else to claim the credit? That's called ghost writing, or ghost mapping in this case. It seems totally senseless.

Shouldn't people be putting their own stamp on things? "Doom the way id did" should mean to follow their style, not emulate it exactly and make people think your work is that of another person. (And no, I'm not bashing the spirit of this megawad, I actually think the megawad has been in breach of its own spirit for a long time!)

[esselfortium]

MajorRawne said:

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier... why would you want your map to be mistaken for one of Sandy Petersen's maps? If this megawad stands the test of time, don't you want your maps to be remembered as your own? Did the author of the incredible Mishri Halek (AV map 20, IMO the most impressive map ever) want someone else to claim the credit? That's called ghost writing, or ghost mapping in this case. It seems totally senseless.

Shouldn't people be putting their own stamp on things? "Doom the way id did" should mean to follow their style, not emulate it exactly and make people think your work is that of another person. (And no, I'm not bashing the spirit of this megawad, I actually think the megawad has been in breach of its own spirit for a long time!)

I don't think you really get the point of this project. Also, no one is ever going to literally think that John or Sandy made these maps for us.

[TMD]

esselfortium said:

I don't think you really get the point of this project. Also, no one is ever going to literally think that John or Sandy made these maps for us.

Wait. They didnt?

[RightField]

What Sandy's style represent to me in Doom boils down to mostly one thing, ambience. His use of colorful textures and themes are used in the same way as you would use lights to set the mood for a concert. Think of the red cross in e2m1, or how e2m4 has alot of blue in it. the dark maze and torches in e2m6, how e2m3 is very green, e3m3's ancient slaughterhouse theme. this along with abstract gameplay oriented level design is what makes the levels sandyish in my opinion.

[Reisal]

Some DTWID beta videos for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1boyVNVze4 E1M1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySXrbFN4HMo E1M2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udwoPdheLa0 E1M3

[esselfortium]

If you really must chronicle the playing of the DTWID beta with Brutal Doom, I think we would all appreciate if your video titles and descriptions were visibly labeled as such. As they are, there's no obvious clue that you've modified DTWID at all, and so the videos are a bit misleading and unrepresentative...