Just a waste of time to read this!

[fullmetalvaran33]

Actually, when you think about it, there's probably something to change with every WAD that is released (or with any project, including those unrelated to Doom and gaming in general). You have to stop the editing process at some point or else you'll be over-editing and changing too much.

I can say this from experience, although I've never made a Doom map (yet), but I have worked on various projects, such as those that are art/graphic design/web design related. I tell myself to stop nit-picking after a while and just declare the project done because I seriously could nit-pick forever. After a while, I look back and find things I think could/should be changed, are questionable decisions, but, that's normal.

So, in regards to the screencaps Craigs posted and about whether or not there are flaws--the editng process has to stop at some point or else one would go crazy! People notice different things due to their ways of thinking, skills, experience, preferences, etc. and not everyone will agree on everything that is pointed out. And try as hard as one may, one can't fix every flaw. But criticisms are probably helpful in some way to the author, and they can take them into account for their next project.

[DoomCup]

Yeah! Stronghold sucks!....

Wait, what's Stronghold again? Wasn't that some shitty medieval game my cousin thought was awesome a few years back?

[reads thread]

Oh, it's another zdoom wad.

Okay. *goes back to what he was doing*

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

Icytux said:

What the fuck guys, and i who thought this was a good community?

Ok

so you guys say "its so hype to say that it have been worked on for 6 years."

Uh, I'm not sure who said that exactly (correct me if someone did say that in this thread), but it's more the fact that it has been in development for 6 years with mixed results to show for it therein.

As i've been in the team for a very very long time, doing mostly nothing

heh?

You think his countdown timer on his site is so hype? that he is not the only one contributing to this community?
he can advertise as much as he wants on his own site, wouldn't you?

I frankly don't care what he does on his own site, seeing as the only reason I've ever visited it is to take a good honest look through his tutorials (which I feel weren't bad, he could just use a bit of work getting his ideas across better), and to find screenshots of his maps to make fun of.

Heres what i think of tormentor doing this countdown timer for his project, its advertising your projects release yeah, but ITS NOT THAT BAD. I MEAN COME ON. it could have been worse. its not like he threw it at your face everywhere, he just made a topic on the forums that might be interested in it, didnt even make a cheesy title to the topic and just any other guy could have made a countdown for his project and not get bashed on, but tormentor seems to get bashed by you guys judging him from his past.

If his Stronghold maps turn out to be amazing, I take back everything I said and did in this thread to make fun of him. I just severely doubt it.

40oz's and Fisk's reactions just dissappointed me. as being a part of the team, having the project that is not even released being bashed like that because of a single picture, just feels unneccesary, and uncalled for. and hey, i thought they were smart guys.

Really, I'm only directly making fun of Torm. Sorry, I don't truly mean that the entire team are incompetent or anything, but I just can't get over how silly some of his maps look in Stronghold. And this is supposedly after 6 years, with nobody noticing.

Fisk told he could make stronghold quality map in 6 hours, he even proved himself wrong, why even post he could do it in the first place then? thats just unneccesary bashing.

Thanks for missing the joke completely.

fyi, I claimed I could make a Torm quality map in "4 or 5 hours". It took me 6 hours to produce results. I conceded defeat on the grounds that it took me slightly longer to produce said results than I claimed, but the time it took me is still miniscule.

I cant quote tormentor saying he has worked on stronghold non-stop 6 years. Because he hasn't said that. go ahead, twist the word "Been in development" saying to whatever you like, but it dosnt mean being worked on non-stop.

To be perfectly fair, you're absolutely correct. Some of us just feel that 6 years is a bit excessive. I, however, think such a lengthy development time for sub-par maps is a smack in the face of everyone who waited for the project to see the light of day. I both paid tribute to and made fun of Tormentor667 at the same time by posting screenshots of a jokemap containing lots of the sillier things he puts in his maps as the situation required. Justice was delt. The world is safe.

40oz even promoting his own project in this topic? talk about hyping UAC Ultra...

I played UAC Ultra and I had a fuckton of fun with it. I have a very strong feeling Stronghold will not be as good gameplay-wise as UAC Ultra was, based on experience with some of Tormentor's previous forays into Doom mapping. I'm sure alot of people agree with this sentiment, comparing UAC Ultra - nominee of a Cacoward - with let's say, TCOTD 1 or 2 from Tormentor, or any of his KDIZD maps.

[TimeOfDeath]

I like classic maps and zdoom maps, and I don't hate Torm. But, starting a thread with no information, no screenshots, no links, and only a "countdown picture" just feels like spam to me, no matter who posts it.

[John Smith]

Icytux said:

As i've been in the team for a very very long time, doing mostly nothing, seeing how hard it has been for tormentor to deal with this slacking team of his. and i think its really awesome that he somehow, got us to do this final push to finish this thing, i honestly thought it was dead.

This so doesn't help your case you realize this.

[ReX]

Craigs said:

... Torm is inducing unnecessary hype with the whole countdown thing, but I don't think it's going to affect the quality of the project. I'm sure Tormentor's narcissism and inability to accept constructive criticism will take care of that. However, I do believe that it is incredibly arrogant and stupid.

.... it pretty much screams narcissistic douche bag kind of like when he was bragging and showing off a letter he got from John Romero about KDIZD. I'm saying this for Tormentor's own good here. He should really cut that shit out and keep his unwarranted self importance in check before he makes an even bigger ass of himself.

And that, ladies & gentlemen, is the classic way to spread hate under the guise of "tough love". Wasn't something like that happening in Europe in the late 1400s? Ah, yes, the Spanish Inquisition.

Oh, I'm only thinking about Tormentor here. I don't really have an axe to grind with him, and I sure as heck am not carrying a grudge for something that he did 3 years ago. I just want him to improve as an artist and as a person. And me? Oh, no! I'm not dragging around any biases as baggage.

You, sir, are mistaking enthusiasm for self-promotion and aggrandizement. Step back a bit and you'll see that what Tormentor has done on these forums is no different from what many others have done to advertise upcoming releases. The fact that he is doing it in a manner that many would characterize as "style" (and the fact that it's evident you just don't like the guy) is what's gotten your pink satin panties all knotted and jammed up your ass.

Rid yourself of some of that swagger and then perhaps people may take you seriously.

[Csonicgo]

Hey ReX, nice job of going out of your way to avoid Godwin. Using the Spanish Inquisition instead doesn't make your argument any more valid though, better luck next time.

A couple of tips of advice buddy: first off don't stick words in other peoples mouths, it makes you look like a classless, uncouth, pathetic little tool. Second, if, as you say, there's no accounting for other peoples tastes, then why don't you shut the fuck up when other people voice their tastes. K buddy? good.

[gun_psycho]

@Fisk - Well, to be honest, I'm thinking of trying this out once it's released and play it through at least once to see how it is. (I understand that not everyone's going to like it, though.)

[fullmetalvaran33]

Fisk said: I played UAC Ultra and I had a fuckton of fun with it. I have a very strong feeling Stronghold will not be as good gameplay-wise as UAC Ultra was, based on experience with some of Tormentor's previous forays into Doom mapping. I'm sure alot of people agree with this sentiment, comparing UAC Ultra - nominee of a Cacoward - with let's say, TCOTD 1 or 2 from Tormentor, or any of his KDIZD maps.

I enjoyed "UAC Ultra" and both "The City of the Damned" WADs for different reasons. Personally, I'm not sure if either TCotD deserve a Cacoaward, but I do feel "The Ultimate Torment and Torture" and (to a much lesser extent) "Knee Deep in ZDoom" did. I also feel that "UAC Ultra" should have gotten a Cacoaward.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion most certainly, and some people like Tormentor's works, some people don't. I don't see the point in insulting the author's work nor do I see a point in angrily, viciously defending it through insults at the "haters."

Fisk said: I frankly don't care what he does on his own site, seeing as the only reason I've ever visited it is [...] to find screenshots of his maps to make fun of.

Really? Was that necessary? Critique, yes, by all means, but "make fun of?" I can see the point in making fun of crappy WADs made by trolls looking for attention, but if some really put effort into something, even if the results aren't that great, what's wrong with giving helpful advice in a positive tone? Why "make fun of" someone's work just because you don't like their maps?

Fisk said: Really, I'm only directly making fun of Torm.

Again, why make fun of someone? Why not give a healthy, reasonable, logical critique? You can still point out flaws, but without being rude and negative. Also, maybe the style of "Stronghold" appeals to some and not to others. That's how it always is with WADs, though, I think. Some people love the style of such-and-such WAD while some people don't like it at all. It's just how it is, though.

Icytux said: As i've been in the team for a very very long time, doing mostly nothing, seeing how hard it has been for tormentor to deal with this slacking team of his. and i think its really awesome that he somehow, got us to do this final push to finish this thing, i honestly thought it was dead.

I have to agree with John Smith on this. Icytux, this did not help your argument :(. Although, I think it shows that Tormentor667 cares about his WADs. He just needs to pick better team members. Or maybe it's inevitable because lots of people are procrastinators.

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

fullmetalvaran33 said:

I enjoyed "UAC Ultra" and both "The City of the Damned" WADs for different reasons. Personally, I'm not sure if either TCotD deserve a Cacoaward, but I do feel "The Ultimate Torment and Torture" and (to a much lesser extent) "Knee Deep in ZDoom" did. I also feel that "UAC Ultra" should have gotten a Cacoaward.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion most certainly, and some people like Tormentor's works, some people don't. I don't see the point in insulting the author's work nor do I see a point in angrily, viciously defending it through insults at the "haters."

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this and generally agree with the point of the statements made.

Really? Was that necessary? Critique, yes, by all means, but "make fun of?" I can see the point in making fun of crappy WADs made by trolls looking for attention, but if some really put effort into something, even if the results aren't that great, what's wrong with giving helpful advice in a positive tone? Why "make fun of" someone's work just because you don't like their maps?

Well I have nothing to gain by lying to you, man - it's the honest truth. I can say such and such by Torm looks great, using other external sources that I happen to be looking at that very moment for screenshots to help my point - and half the time, people just know what I'm talking about. But sometimes, I look for something specific that he has done that I find very silly. For that, I go to - no better place - realm667.

Again, why make fun of someone? Why not give a healthy, reasonable, logical critique? You can still point out flaws, but without being rude and negative. Also, maybe the style of "Stronghold" appeals to some and not to others. That's how it always is with WADs, though, I think. Some people love the style of such-and-such WAD while some people don't like it at all. It's just how it is, though.

Again, I have nothing to prove or gain by lying to anyone here. It's hopefully fairly obvious throughout the course of this thread that Tormentor has been the only person I've actually been directly making fun of. And even then, at the same time, I am offering him flattery in its sincerest form by imitating his mapping style, showing that at least some things he has released are memorable. Even if it is in a totally, completely, 100% negative light. Does this make me a troll? Hardly, because I assure you, I am super serious.

[fullmetalvaran33]

@Fisk, I see what you're saying and I wasn't implying that you're a troll. I mostly was just expressing my disappointment and confusion over the massive amount of negativity in this thread, and I'm talking about both the "haters" of Tormentor667/"Stronghold" and the "supporters" of "Tormentor667/"Stronghold."

I personally think the intentions of the ad Torm posted got blown waaay out of proportion, and people ended up throwing insults between themselves and at him. I also just don't see the point in making fun of someone's work, even if you don't think it's great. I mean, there are authors whose works I don't care for much even if others do (or a lot of others do), but I wouldn't make fun of their stuff if they promoted a new project of theirs. I'd ignore their threads about it entirely because meh, why bother? They are happy with their work, they have people who like their work, and I can just look elsewhere for a WAD to play.

I think Tormentor was trying to have fun because he's excited about the release of this new project, and he wants to share that with other people. I can understand because I've made "creations" of my own, although I've never made a Doom map. I've made art projects, graphic design projects, and whatnot, and sometimes I was so proud (in a non-egocentric way--I don't think I'm an amazing artist, just occassionally lucky) I got excited and wanted to share it with others in hopes it would be well-received. Some might find that annoying, arrogant, or stupid, but that's not what I'm trying to come off as. I'm just excited over something I worked long and hard on, and I would like to show other people the "fruits of my labor," so to speak, spread the excitement.

[GreyGhost]

Fisk said:

No, it's not that I don't understand. I get it completely that you and the rest of the guys working on Stronghold take Quality (tm) control into consideration and put effort into scripting and whatnot for the game mode in itself, but even then, let's be generous here and say 1/3 of the effort was spent on quality control and 1/3 on coding.

That's four years.

There are 2 years in here that are completely left unaccounted for.

Sleeping? That typically consumes about a 1/3 of our time.

[40oz]

I wasn't hyping UAC Ultra at all. UAC Ultra is done and has been done for like 6 months now. I don't understand how using it as a reference to my credibility for creating doom projects can be confused with hype.

Anyway. If ANYONE created a "3 more days left!!!" image for anything, the merit of the wads content is thrown out the window. Even if it were someone like Essel, or Huy Pham, or Erik Alm, some of my favorite mappers. My respect for it would be lost. Because to me, that's effort spent on promotion and not on the wad's content. However, I can make an exception if the hype was intended in a comedic manner, but the development team coming in here to defend it demonstrates full-blown seriousness and dedication to the wad's promotion.

[fullmetalvaran33]

40oz said: Anyway. If ANYONE created a "3 more days left!!!" image for anything, the merit of the wads content is thrown out the window. [...] My respect for it would be lost. Because to me, that's effort spent on promotion and not on the wad's content. However, I can make an exception if the hype was intended in a comedic manner, but the development team coming in here to defend it demonstrates full-blown seriousness and dedication to the wad's promotion.

I can see where you're coming from, but I kind of have to disagree on some points. I personally wouldn't promote a WAD of mine like Tormentor667 has with "Stronghold," but I don't think his method is wrong or bad or arrogant. I think he's just excited over the release, since it's something he worked on and put time into and he's probably proud of his efforts (in a respectable, non-egocentric way), so he wants to share it with others. I can see you as well as others don't agree with it or like it--and that's fine--but I think people are getting way too judgemental. I think the promo ads are meant for fun, and I doubt they're taking up much time. Chances are the template for the ads took, like an hour or less to make, which isn't much. Posting about the WAD doesn't take long either. I'm getting the impression that the project is pretty much done, probably in the final "tweaking" stage where a little here and there is fixed but nothing major, not at this point.

I think the development team coming into the thread to defend the WAD is normal, and I don't think it's about the promotion. I can't say I agree with Icytux's method of arguing--it's way too harsh--but I think that the creators feel protective of their work, like most...creators do with anything they create. I do think some of the comments in this thread were out of line, too rude and quite harsh, and I think that's what made the development team come in, to defend their work out of respect for it. Not so much to promote it out the butt.

[ClonedPickle]

I think one of the problems with the "X DAYS LEFT" thing is that we don't actually know if Stronghold is already done (well, RC1 is done) but Torm made those pictures and he's gonna use them, damnit! Of course, there's still probably little tune-ups being done that won't take long to finish and Torm has just figured he can get it all wrapped up by the time his countdown images run out. The impression doesn't give off any sort of "yeah we're just finishing it" feel, though, it's all "GET PSYCHED I'M FINALLY RELEASING THIS SHIT YEAHHHHH" and I guess that could rub people the wrong way.

Or something. I dunno.

[Cardboard Marty]

Ralphis said:

I haven't heard of any countdown or anything (I've barely heard of this project), but I will say this:

1) I think the screenshots look really sweet and cool. There are clear improvements from the old->new shots.

2) Countdowns are awesome, especially for large projects! I imagine most of the dissent comes because it's a Tormentor project and a lot of people here are haters. Granted, I've not been the biggest fan of Tormentor's work throughout the years but I imagine that all of this "hype" would be received much more positively if it were Scuba Steve releasing Action Doom 3 with a countdown instead. Just saying.

Tormentor really cares about Doom, he works hard on his projects, and I'm not gonna hate on someone that is so passionate about the game with the skills to back it up. As far as whether or not the wad actually deserved the hype, I'll reserve judgment until after its release.

Real talk.

Pretty much this. Scuba Steve hyped the hell out of Action Doom, and I believe the community enjoyed it. I think a lot of this is "Torm-hate", especially when two of the images he posted weren't even on this forum. The ZDoom community obviously likes the ads, so what's the big deal here?

It's not just a "Tormentor Project" either, keep that in mind. I look forward to the release. :)

[esselfortium]

Scuba Steve's hyping of Action Doom was obviously and decidedly tongue-in-cheek throughout. This seems pretty serious and straightforward. That makes a huge difference.

[John Smith]

Marty Razor Kirra said:

The ZDoom community obviously likes the ads, so what's the big deal here?

This statement is indescribably stupid. The ZDoom theatre is not the gold standard for anything in the Doom community at large, except perhaps the gold standard for amount of furries. I'm pretty sure that most of the dwf forum populace doesn't give two shits about the overall opinion of another forum, and rightfully so.

[printz]

Now that I think of it, it would have been on the other hand very weak to just watch Torm put up posters and us scream like zombies in joy. Yeah, skepticism is often healthier.

The part I DON'T find healthy is how intolerant are some of you to ZDoom wads, automatically.

[Craigs]

printz said:

Now that I think of it, it would have been on the other hand very weak to just watch Torm put up posters and us scream like zombies in joy. Yeah, skepticism is often healthier.

The part I DON'T find healthy is how intolerant are some of you to ZDoom wads, automatically.

[printz]

Please elaborate. A stock image like that only says how you are palming your face, I'm not condemning you for your pain.

[boris]

Isn't it funny how some people complain about "giant wallpaper sized pics to countdown" and then post bigger facepalm images as a reply?

[Tormentor667]

Ralphis said:

Real talk.

Thank you!

Fisk said:

Again, I have nothing to prove or gain by lying to anyone here. It's hopefully fairly obvious throughout the course of this thread that Tormentor has been the only person I've actually been directly making fun of.

Glad to know that this thread isn't about Stronghold but your attitude towards me :P

Marty Razor Kirra said:

It's not just a "Tormentor Project" either, keep that in mind. I look forward to the release. :)

You got it! The way this thread turns into a flaming war again is just without any respect towards all the skilled people who have worked on Stronghold as well! And really, Doomworld is the only place where I did this advertisement sort f and where it actually turned into bashing and flaming, I absolutely don't understand this!

[Alter]

As if this was a surprise, everyone knows hating on Tormentor over Doomworld is popular, cool & shit so nearly everyone who is an old fart follows it.

Remember guys, it's easy to be a dick but it's hard to make a quality product. And dicks, always lose in life, that includes you Craigs.

Disrespecting Stronghold which wasn't even released yet also means disrespecting the ENTIRE team. Shame on you guys, shame on you.

[DeathevokatioN]

Is it true Vader made a map for this project? Anyway, hopefully it would be awesome.

Not to feed the flames or anything, but I'm not sure what Tormentor did to deserve all this hostility? I thought the wall paper was just a fun tongue in cheek, gimmicky way to let everyone know the project was about to be released soon.

[Tormentor667]

DeathevokatioN said:

Is it true Vader made a map for this project? Anyway, hopefully it would be awesome.

Even more than one map!

[Cardboard Marty]

John Smith said:

This statement is indescribably stupid. The ZDoom theatre is not the gold standard for anything in the Doom community at large, except perhaps the gold standard for amount of furries. I'm pretty sure that most of the dwf forum populace doesn't give two shits about the overall opinion of another forum, and rightfully so.

I only say that because he only did his triple post of ads on ZDoom, not here. Once Craigs pointed that he hyped the project with an image for each day (over at the ZDoom forums), it seems everybody here got all fired up. So like you said, if THIS forum doesn't really care about what the ZDoom community likes (and rightfully so), then why are we using his posts on the ZDoom forum (which people are obviously more receptive to this sorta thing) for evidence of him hyping the hell out of the project?

But hey, maybe I'm not really seeing the big deal here. To each his own. :)

esselfortium said:

Scuba Steve's hyping of Action Doom was obviously and decidedly tongue-in-cheek throughout. This seems pretty serious and straightforward. That makes a huge difference.

I only pointed it out because it seems like people here have a bigger problem with who is posting the ad rather than the content. But you are correct with your point. :P

[Icytux]

Fisk said:

If his Stronghold maps turn out to be amazing, I take back everything I said and did in this thread to make fun of him. I just severely doubt it.

this is the thing i dont understand about your view point.
so it would have been OKAY if tormentor hyped about his project that LOOKS PERFECT?
but its not ok if it doesn't?

oh, someone should add to the posting guidelines that you can only add a countdown timer for your project if it looks perfect.

Really, I'm only directly making fun of Torm. Sorry, I don't truly mean that the entire team are incompetent or anything, but I just can't get over how silly some of his maps look in Stronghold. And this is supposedly after 6 years, with nobody noticing.

Stronghold is a community effort, with a team that tormentor picked up by asking politley if we wanted to join. and we all contributed something to the project. everyone who mapped, made a map with their own mapping style, and thats how it is. some maps are better than others, some are worse than others. its not like the team can just scream a mapper in the face "make it better". if he already did what he could best.

What is seen in those old new screenshots, is definitley not the best in the pack, but sadly not the worst either.

But having a top quality project with this many authors is just hard, keeping everything tip top, because its so dependent on the whole teams skill. and having it going on in such a long time as 6 years is just more trouble than good with such a big team.

But its not like this is going to be the best ever project ever released, its not like anyone in the team has said that. why do people think someone has said that? why do people expect that out of this project? i mean come on. its just another community project. why all this expectation?

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

Tormentor667 said:

Glad to know that this thread isn't about Stronghold but your attitude towards me :P

Maybe my wording was a bit unclear. Mayhap I try again?

"I have nothing against you personally really, I just find this way of advertising your project to be a bit... Too direct. I have also played several of your previous projects, of which I do not really think are of top quality. That being said, and taking into consideration previous material released on Stronghold, I have it on good faith that this project will be something I play once to ensure I have an educated opinion on it, and generally dislike and never play again. In other words, despite all the excitement around it, I do not think it will be particularly memorable."

[Jodwin]

Icytux said:

its not like the team can just scream a mapper in the face "make it better". if he already did what he could best.

Yes they can and, in fact, should. It's what's called quality control (which is claimed to be one big reason that Stronghold took so long). If, despite supposedly tight quality control, the project still includes content significantly worse than the rest then the QC failed at its task. Speaking from personal experience, that kind of QC is what made Claustrophobia 1024 as good as it was, and at the same time it also helped me (and hopefully others, too) improve as a mapper a lot.

Well, there's nothing wrong with happy-go-lucky projects, but if you're aiming for something with real quality and quality control, you have to demand 110 % out of your team members.