A Question For Programmers

[ShadyXMR]

I'm with IMJack... get a Dummies book. That's how I started.

I started in seventh grade with C for Dummies. It's easy to understand. I bought a few other books about C, read them. Eventually bought C++ for Dummies, read a couple other C++ books, then took APCS in high school (first semester of it last year, the only semester they offered, now I'm finishing it since they're offering all of it now).

I actually have a little problem of my own regarding this assignment I'm working on. That isn't surprising since the teacher doesn't teach anything.

MWHAHAHAH, I actually 100% understand the code snippets in this thread. I feel so l33t now.

Flamewar? I am not surprised, we've had wars over the concept of numbers, so programming is only naturally to follow.

Anyway, yeah, I guess BASIC, C, C++ are good starters. Though they don't really count, you could learn HTML, JavaScript, Java, XML...

or not.

[IMJack]

I actually have a little problem of my own regarding this assignment I'm working on. That isn't surprising since the teacher doesn't teach anything.

I've been takingprogramming classes for six years, and I've yet to get an instructor who actually knew how to teach.

My new CS teacher is pretty good, but UML isn't really a programming language.

[Fredrik]

Forget Brainfuck, this is the only language you can write a game in :D

[fraggle]

Forget Brainfuck, this is the only language you can write a game in :D

No.

[Zaldron]

There's some really fucking bored people out there...

[Lüt]

There's some really fucking bored people out there...

...says the guy who spent the morning doing Google image searches of himself.

[Fredrik]

Forget Brainfuck, this is the only language you can write a game in :D

No.

Maybe you can combine chef with trinaries? :P

[Zaldron]

There's some really fucking bored people out there...

...says the guy who spent the morning doing Google image searches of himself.

That's because I haven't slept in 20 hours. I ran out of fun stuff already...

[Lord FlatHead]

Well, there's always excessive wanking.

[fodders]

Maybe you can combine chef with trinaries? :P

IF NUM cooks > cooks; LET BROTH = spoiled

[læmænt]

If someone is interested in esoteric languages, I suggest you join the esolang mailing list. They have a contest which ends in march, and there will probably be lots of cool shit.

[Jonathan]

Personally I learned to program in goatC, it's quite good for beginners, although it may not be suitable for children.

[Katgut]

Program in D!

DEATH TO FORWARD REFERENCES

[pritch]

There's some really fucking bored people out there...

...says the guy who spent the morning doing Google image searches of himself.

That's because I haven't slept in 20 hours. I ran out of fun stuff already...

WELL YOU COULD FUCKING REPLY ON MSN... 'BUSY', MY ARSE

oh wait, 'fun things', whoops, sorry :)

[Jon]

I had a long list of things to say about pointers/arrays etc. but fraggle has beaten me too it :) so instead I offer the following gems.

If you want to learn to program, do not learn basic or visual basic. You will learn no programming skills that are transferrable, and additionally beginners in basic can very quickly pick up bad style habits that are hard to shake off.

I would suggest java as a good language to start off with. Now firstly, java programs tend to be pretty slow and I've yet to see one single useful program written in java, but the language is relatively easy to learn, teaches you some of the basics of other languages (C, C++) and makes the transition to C/C++ and probably C# now, that bit easier.

Some light perl or python perhaps as well.

Anyway, I started learning C using the 'for dummies' books, and I'd suggest that they are a good way to START programming in the language, but they are very, very incomplete as far as learning to program is concerned, and you should not treat them as complete but as a starter for something like K&R.

Erm, VC++ isn't the be all and end all of compilers for windows. Firstly, a compiler doesn't necessarily need to be tied to an IDE so there's more to it than MSVC++/Borland; plenty of free tools too (the GNU C Compiler is available for win32 as cygwin development tools and minigw compiler). Emacs is very popular as an editor (I've started to use this in the last few weeks).

The reason that C++ compilers can compile C programs is that they are DUAL compilers: C and C++ ARE different languages ('new' is a keyword in C++ but not C; etc. etc.) Similarly Visual C++ isn't an extension to C++ at all but I think that has been covered.

Someone once said to me that its good to learn as many languages as possible because you improve your skills in all of your languages when you improve in any one of them.

(multi-dimensional arrays do not exist btw, each element of one 'array' is an array in itself (or really, each element of the array is a pointer to an array..))

[Fredrik]

(multi-dimensional arrays do not exist btw, each element of one 'array' is an array in itself (or really, each element of the array is a pointer to an array..))

Which does make them multi-dimensional.

[Jon]

(multi-dimensional arrays do not exist btw, each element of one 'array' is an array in itself (or really, each element of the array is a pointer to an array..))

Which does make them multi-dimensional.

No.. memory is linear, the pointers are arranged linearly in memory, each pointer pointing to a new _linear_ block of values (which might be pointers themselves if we're talking about an array of pointers of a '3d array' etc.)

Its perceived and treated as multi-dimensional but they are infact not.

Hence (java):

char[][] blah = new char[2][5];
char.length // 2
char[0].length // 5

[Fredrik]

Though the definition of dimension is pretty abstract. I guess you could consider linearly stored data multi-dimensional since the pointers kinda point at multiple "dimensions".

[Jon]

yeah, my point was simply explaining how they really exist in reply to a comment made by someone about arrays being collections of objects (also wrong in a technical sense)

[deep]

All code references require ADDRESSES to memory. That goes for the code/instructions, the data, the whole 9 yards. Pointers, arrays, pointers to pointers and so forth make absolutely no difference to an assembler programmer.

IOW, various terms in a language are mainly artificial constructs to help describe/solve a problem. It's one's use of same that implies what it actually "points" to or is used for.

The address/pointer can be many things, such as an interrupt vector for servicing I/O, a DMA address or for the more mundane stuff - data or arrays. Assembler programmers tend to see things more in terms of instructions, rather than "data".

Learning coding concepts (very abstract) can be handled via ANY language. VB is as good as any. That little programming language that was a fad a while back - it was on the ADAM computer, was fun to mess with. What was the name of that? Damn, right at the tip of my tongue. "Turtle", wasn't that the name?

One can easily mix C and C++ concepts. DeePsea was originally 16 bit C, then 32bit DMPI, then 32bit Windows API. I could have even copied the original DOS "dialogs" and not have it message driven if it wasn't for the simple fact that would have been a dumb idea:) Although that's an OS issue, not a language thing.

The "visual" part of compiler names is derived from the IDE that let's one "draw" interfaces. Borland was one of the best. I don't remember who was first - maybe Borland. WYSIWYG interface design is now pretty common in VB, DELPHI/pascal, C/C++ compilers.

[IMJack]

Learning coding concepts (very abstract) can be handled via ANY language. VB is as good as any. That little programming language that was a fad a while back - it was on the ADAM computer, was fun to mess with. What was the name of that? Damn, right at the tip of my tongue. "Turtle", wasn't that the name?

Logo! I remember that thing. We played with it back in kindergarten, on the old Apple ][e's the school had! (It took talking to my sister to remember the name.)

[deep]

LOGO that's it. On the ADAM they had little turtles you could control .. that's why I thought that was the name.

A fun and interesting way to learn, since it was very interactive in a gaming sort of way.

[læmænt]

Heh, HUNTER anyone? :)

[Jon]

I don't agree that VB is as good a language to start with as any. Without disciplined indentation (uncommon in a beginner) a long code listing with lots of embedded 'levels' (loops within conditionals within loops..) is nigh on impossible to read easily.

[Fredrik]

Yeah, problem with VB code is that if you don't do indentation and spacing exactly the right way, it will be unreadable.

[fodders]

Ford, Nissan and Jaguar are buying over 400 copies each of a prog my son made using VB

The President of Thailand is to buy 500,000 copies of a prog my son made using VB

A security tracking company is to use a global positioning program my son made using VB

as I said earlier, if you want to earn big money it's a fine program:)

[Amanichen]

Is he a skilled coder and he only codes in VB, or is it the fact that the president of Ford and the government in Thailand gave a crap what language it was programmed in?
;-)

[fodders]

As I said, it's ok for elitists to eschew this and that about finer points, but at the end of the day surely it's about earning a crust? Some c++'ers may one day develop a fine prog. But what car will they be driving?

[læmænt]

Yeah, problem with VB code is that if you don't do indentation and spacing exactly the right way, it will be unreadable.

And how is C different? *cough*IOCCC*cough*

[deep]

Yeah, problem with VB code is that if you don't do indentation and spacing exactly the right way, it will be unreadable.

Good grief, that goes for ANY language. Next you and Jon will tell everyone that unless you stay out of the rain you'll get wet.

Hell, I can show you C code is way more unreadable than anything VB can come up with. I originally thought C was awful - not realizing I was looking at bad coding techniques.

Coding is coding is coding. Learning how to code and learning a language (or what a language can do) are 2 different topics.

In some disciplines, some languages are a much better fit. I started with Assembler, then used Fortran for some engineering/statistical work, back to assembler, COBOL (only taught it - just not me), then C, some other machine's assembler, then C++. I swore I'm not going to learn another processors assembler language - but if I had to I would.

In the end - as Fodders noted - whatever pays the bills. Personal preferences are what the name implies. Putting a personal spin on it is like arguing what kind of food you like. I "like" C/C++ only because that's me. Now if someone comes up with a "mind reading" compiler, I'll jump on that in a heart beat.