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Jodwin

Doom 1 nostalgy?

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I've been wondering about this for a while, but why do so many people here get a hard on the moment you hear the words "E1 replacement" or "Doom 1 megawad?" Of course E1 is for many the epitome of Doom nostalgy but why do Doom 1 projects get much stronger reactions than Doom 2 projects do? Because, lets face it, Doom 2 has much more content in it than Doom 1 does, and there's nothing in Doom 1 that Doom 2 doesn't have.

Educate me, why should I get a bigger hard on the next time someone releases an E1 replacement than when someone else releases a Doom 2 episode?

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There often is an element of nostalgia going on, although Knee-Deep in the Dead and DOOM mods also offer their unique play compared to DOOM II. Since they are rarer, because in general people feel tempted to use DOOM II to take advantage of the new monsters, items and weapons, people tend to celebrate their coming a bit more. There's also the "theming" aspect. A number of people prefer DOOM over DOOM II, aesthetically.

The same thing happens again between DOOM and Knee-Deep in the Dead. The first episode is even more restricted, and more aesthetically consistent, than all the rest.

Personally, I'm a big fan of DOOM II game play, but I certainly do enjoy a well-constructed DOOM level set because play is different but also good, even if not usually as intense.

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I'm guessing because E1 could be downloaded for free, which was the first step into Doom for many people. Also because E1 has a very distinctive theme and feel that is lacking in Doom 2.

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The SSG and new monsters give Doom 2 a different pacing. Not better or worse, just different.

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Doom e1 will always be a number one because everybody (almost) downloaded it and played it. Not only that but it was the best constructed and polished episode. The rest feels the pain of, well, sloppyness, at least to me. ...Sandy finishing Tom Hall's maps or (shudder) making his own...

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myk said:

There often is an element of nostalgia going on, although Knee Deep in the Dead and DOOM mods also offer their unique play compared to DOOM II. Since they are rarer, because in general people feel tempted to use DOOM II to take advantage of the new monsters, items and weapons, people tend to celebrate their coming a bit more. There's also the "theming" aspect. A number of people prefer DOOM over DOOM II, aesthetically.

The same thing happens again between DOOM and Knee Deep in the Dead. The first episode is even more restricted, and more aesthetically consistent, than all the rest.

Personally, I'm a big fan of DOOM II game play, but I certainly do enjoy a well-constructed DOOM level set because play is different but also good, even if not usually as intense.

Speaking of aesthetics, there's no reason why you couldn't make E1-themed maps in Doom 2. Well, perhaps Doom 2 doesn't have all the textures, but then again if I recall correctly there was only one person really opposed against the notion of using Doom 1 textures in Doom 2 projects. ;) Although, even if you stuck only to Doom 2 and custom textures it doesn't mean you couldn't use E1 design principles.

Similarly there's no reason why you couldn't restrict your gameplay design when mapping for Doom 2 to create more Doom 1-like gameplay. Although I'll be the first one to say that the SSG is used way too much in Doom 2 maps (at the expense of other weapons, that is), I don't go wild at every Doom 1 release even though they'll be guaranteed not to have the SSG.

I guess my point would be this: Why get excited over a Doom 1 project when, the only thing it guarantees is that it will have less content than a similar Doom 2 project might have. They both use the same engine and almost exactly same resources (hell, they can be exactly the same if you want to), so there is no reason why you couldn't see Doom 1 mapping in Doom 2 projects and Doom 2 mapping in Doom 1 projects. The only real difference is that one has less possibilities...and fighting lots of barons with the single shotgun.

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Well, as far as "e1 design principles" go, I've found that the vast majority of wads that bill themselves as "e1-styled" maps or episode replacements completely and utterly miss the mark on understanding and reproducing what made e1 such a great episode. And so we get lots of squarish, somewhat uninteresting layouts textured with startan all over the place, and an occasional "homage" (or substitute for your less-honorable term of choice) scene mixed in here and there to make it "feel like e1".

Kind of disappointing, IMO.

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Jodwin said:
Well, perhaps Doom 2 doesn't have all the textures, but then again if I recall correctly there was only one person really opposed against the notion of using Doom 1 textures in Doom 2 projects. ;)

Not exactly. I'm working on a personal project that does that :p

My opposition is to ripping when it can be done by loading the IWADs, properly supporting what id requests.

Although, even if you stuck only to Doom 2 and custom textures it doesn't mean you couldn't use E1 design principles.

Similarly there's no reason why you couldn't restrict your gameplay design when mapping for Doom 2 to create more Doom 1-like gameplay.

You can, and some levels within DOOM II sets do it, but they end up being more of a styling or exception rather than something solidly designed, because:

I guess my point would be this: Why get excited over a Doom 1 project when, the only thing it guarantees is that it will have less content than a similar Doom 2 project might have.

That "less content" clearly marks the difference. The same thing happens to source port functionality. You can get most ports to look and behave much like vanilla, but you mostly don't because it's more of a hassle and an exceptional form of usage. This is one of those cases where limits create extra possibilities. If DOOM were just part of DOOM II, it would be less identifiable and characteristic.

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Some reasons Doom 1 may be better than Doom 2:

- four secret levels, instead of only two in rapid succession
- five real boss maps (two being in episode 4)
- lots more opportunity to express the storyline in graphics (from the intermission pictures to the ending pictures)
- 36 levels instead of just 32 :>
- creepier music available in Doom 1 (if we go by Hollenshead's clause not to use resources from another commercial id game). There's very little strictly hellish music in Doom 2: D_COUNTD, D_MESSAG. The rest sounds kinda urban. BUT you can go the Plutonia loophole and be avenged.
- you can use with Dehacked the open space left by Doom 2 to create all-new objects for the megawad. This part probably invalidates the "less content" supposition that Jodwin made.

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printz said:
- four secret levels, instead of only two in rapid succession
- five real boss maps (two being in episode 4)

Yeah, these two things in particular kept me wondering whether I was better off working with DOOM rather than DOOM II. Eventually, the extra weapon slot won out for me. In the case of the secrets, it's not just the number, but also the implementation, as they can be used to create level succession tricks. Want to make a seamless, 16-level megawad using three episodes in vanilla? Just skip some levels going to the the secret levels earlier and you have it. One can also make deathmatch sections and make them cycle perpetually by using a secret level.

BUT you can go the Plutonia loophole and be avenged.

Heh, actually, I was tempted to use Plutonia instead of DOOM II due to some extra textures, but rejected the idea because it gets rid of some DOOM II music I really like.

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Since we're talking about Doom 1 vs Doom 2, I have to say that I very much prefer Doom1's episode structure. The level count feels just right, there's a secret level map in each episode and there's a forced pistol start in the start of the episode. Ultimate Doom feels much easier to pick up and play for me, and Doom 2 feels like an overwhelming task.

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hervoheebo said:

I'm guessing because E1 could be downloaded for free, which was the first step into Doom for many people. Also because E1 has a very distinctive theme and feel that is lacking in Doom 2.

esselfortium said:

Well, as far as "e1 design principles" go, I've found that the vast majority of wads that bill themselves as "e1-styled" maps or episode replacements completely and utterly miss the mark on understanding and reproducing what made e1 such a great episode. And so we get lots of squarish, somewhat uninteresting layouts textured with startan all over the place, and an occasional "homage" (or substitute for your less-honorable term of choice) scene mixed in here and there to make it "feel like e1".

Kind of disappointing, IMO.


Doom 2 lacks the level design qualities of doom 1--doom 1 had smaller, more intimate settings. Doom 2 is square and wide open and doesn't have as a distinct and close feel. Doom 2 deleted all the good textures from doom 1 and left the rest. E1 has picturesque mountains. Doom 2 has a sky that looks like it was siphoned from the nearest sewage drain.

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E1 is definitely the best episode in Doom, and I don't think it's so much nostalgia about downloading it back in the day as it is strong layouts and (to a lesser degree) the texture themes. I did play the PSX version back when it was relatively new, but I only really started playing Doom with Doom 2 on my PC. I played through it a few times, got a hold of Ultimate Doom, and even then I thought the E1 maps were right on par with the best maps in Doom 2.

The reason I mention the texture themes is that I actually prefer the Jaguar version, which brought some Doom 2 textures to E1M3, E1M4, and E1M5. I actually think they work better than the originals in those levels. I asked Romero who did the level edits on his Formspring page, but he never answered. E2 and E3 also really benefited from the texture edits.

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Yeah the free shareware aspect caused much of the obsession with episode 1, I think. I was only 11 or so when I finally got a friend with the internet to make a shareware disk for me, and snuck it onto my father's work laptop ;-P

Spent the next ~2 years playing it over and over, probably in the vicinity of 100 times, since it was literally the only computer game I had.

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Whenever people do replacements for Doom 1 mostly, I usually think they do it because it's alot more easier to custom make Tech bases rather then Doom 2's setting which was outside and in cities and what not. And since when people do re-takes on maps from the Iwads they tend to go overboard in detail, therefore the cities they would produce would not look so Doom-ish and a good example of this would be in the Action.wad

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I tend to value the difference between Doom 1 and Doom 2 more than the difference between E1 and any other episode. The more "limited" bestiary in the first Doom changes the gameplay style significantly, offering difficulty by numbers or by limited equipment simply because it lacks the high-end monsters/weapon that Doom 2 has.

By that argument, though, it's easy to draw a line between E1 and the rest because it has even less enemy and weapon types than the others. Even E2 is set apart a bit from E3 and E4 by its lack of BFG. Either way, sometimes simpler can be better -- remember how powerful the chaingun felt in E1? ;)

It really seems to boil down to two main facts: Doom 1 (and by extension, E1) has a much different feel than Doom 2, and most people played Doom 1 (and E1) first. So yeah, it's mostly the nostalgia kicking in for most of us that makes many prefer E1's style, but it's different enough from other episodes to allow for being singled out like it is.

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For me the idea is very attractive to have episodes that retain the feel of ep1 but up the challenge beyond the original, but not too much that it loses its feeling of the original. CH Retro ep is probably the closest wad to having a continuation of the original feel to it, but there are a couple of parts with frustrating puzzles that hamper the otherwise fast pace that this style requires.

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