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Cell

Whispers of Satan [split from bumped thread]

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I really loved playing this WAD. The detail pass has the detail pass on, correct gameplay, correct difficulties. Even 2002ADO wasn't such a hit. The Cybie jokes on #32 and #33 made me laugh as hell.

Furthermore, I've noticed some strange things about the awesome music:
- The music of MAP05 reminds me a bit of Duke Nukem 3D Plutonium Pack E4L6's music POB/Pissed Office Box.
- MAP06's and MAP17's music has some riffs quite similar to Wolfenstein 3D's E1M10/E4M10 music "Enemy around the corner".
- MAP20's music in the beginning is like Simply Phobos' E1M5 or Death Tormention III's E4M1. Then in the ending, it turns into sg. like the E4M2's music of DTIII.
- Music of MAP22 seems to be a tribute of "The Demons from Adrian's Pen".
- The same thing with the beginning of MAP27's music. That one reminds me riffs from "Shawn's got the Shotgun".
- MAP29's music in the end sounds similar to DN3D's E1M2's music.
- MAP32's music must be a remake of "Deadly Gentlemen" from ROTT.

I've just noticed and thought these things.

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You are certainly right there with some of the songs. MAP20's song is indeed a rewrite of E1M5 of Simply Phobos. You are dead right with MAP22's song. MAP32's song was written from scratch but has a combination of Evil Incarnate and that song from ROTT. All songs in WOS are original.

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I attempted this megawad awhile ago and sorta liked it but I think the keys on the pillar routine got old for me. I think I got as far as level 6. I just started playing again and I'm enjoying it more second time around. Now at level 6 but taking a break to watch Eraserhead. The music isn't working tho. I have been playing with no music at all. Latest version of zdoom. I look forward to getting to level 11 as that's my present goal. Level 6 is kind of annoying with the repetitive chambers, but I'm gonna push through. My only real criticism of the wad is the repeating things like the keys on the pillars, and the switches that are hidden behind panels. The secrets are cool, though--and I am enjoying finding them. They're just nearly almost too annoying to find, but not quite: a good challenge. I really like the use of crates in the levels. Real nice. Especially on level 5. I just wish the level was called Shipping and Receiving and not the goofy name it has. :p

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This megawad has a slow start, like the first 1/3rd doesn't feature the any maps that truly live up to the name of the WAD. But, after you get passed this part, it gets better, creepier, and quite hellish. The later maps are a nightmarish delight, and "Sacrificial Grounds" is so, so creepy, especially with that eerie, haunting music. It's definitely worth playing because of maps like this one.

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Been playing little by little... enjoying it. I may end up recording a second run of it and upload it to youtube, actually.

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Cell, you may want to read your PMs. You can access them from the User Profile link in the top menu, or from the bottom of the forums index page. I just messaged you about bumping threads and then noticed I had already done so earlier, and the tracker notes you haven't read that message yet.

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pcorf said:

You are certainly right there with some of the songs. MAP20's song is indeed a rewrite of E1M5 of Simply Phobos. You are dead right with MAP22's song. MAP32's song was written from scratch but has a combination of Evil Incarnate and that song from ROTT. All songs in WOS are original.


Yeah, I just have an ear for similarities - even if in composing, I'm a complete lame **
Someone with patience, gimme lessons or at last advices! **

myk said:

Cell, you may want to read your PMs. You can access them from the User Profile link in the top menu, or from the bottom of the forums index page. I just messaged you about bumping threads and then noticed I had already done so earlier, and the tracker notes you haven't read that message yet.


Sorry about that. Might read the FAQ and the rules in da minute.
I'd love to ask why the Forum censors automatically the smiley consisting an "X" and a "D"? That's my favourite...

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Cell said:

Sorry about that. Might read the FAQ and the rules in da minute.
I'd love to ask why the Forum censors automatically the smiley consisting an "X" and a "D"? That's my favourite...


Um... A DoomWorld kind of meme happened with the x D emote... It ended very abruptly.

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Thx, now everything is clear.
Keep to thread... I don't want to "off topic" anymore.

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Cell said:

I'd love to ask why the Forum censors automatically the smiley consisting an "X" and a "D"? That's my favourite...

It's explained here.

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Now, I'm wondering about what command the authors used to disable jumping and crouching. Well, it was for the reason these two must have ruined half of the gameplay at last.

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It's these two lines in the MAPINFO lump -

nojump
nocrouch
Some would argue it was done to preserve gameplay.

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It's less about that than it is about keeping the map from being broken by a non-cheat feature. Plus, it's easier to accidentally abuse than activating god mode or noclip (which is considered a cheat regardless of use).

I do admit to occasionally editing those lines out, though, for non-serious play. :P

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GreyGhost said:

It's these two lines in the MAPINFO lump -

nojump
nocrouch
Some would argue it was done to preserve gameplay.

Do I have to write it before every level, or writing it only once influences the entire WAD? Just asking, I'm not that keen on this.

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If you put them in the defaultmap or adddefaultmap block, they'll affect all the maps that are defined after. Read the wiki. ;)

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I think its about time that implementing ports addressed this issue in a more user-friendly manner. As a user, I could care less whether me jumping onto a wall might "brake the map"; I should not be prevented from using a feature that was implemented despite that possibility. Allowing the mod author to "disable" a usability concession made in a port is quite simply bad design.

Here's my suggestion:
* Allow mod authors to hint at the game configuration designed for using MAPINFO.
* Do not force that configuration on the user. Inform them of the discrepancies between their current config (and that which the mod expects) and instead, allow them to individually decide whether they will concede temporary changes to their config (i.e., only for this play session and not written to archived user profile/configs) or ignore the hint. Note that saved games will need to store these decisions so as not to annoy the user even more than the current system!

Such a system would be complimented by a set of high-level "strategy" cvars which specify the default behaviour when a game config discrepancy is found:
A) Always adjust as the mod suggests.
B) Always ignore/don't bug the user.
C) Always ask the user.

Edit: For those interested, I spec'd something similar for Doomsday 2.0 here - http://dengine.net/dew/index.php?title=Game_rules_module

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Cell said:

Sorry about that. Might read the FAQ and the rules in da minute.
I'd love to ask why the Forum censors automatically the smiley consisting an "X" and a "D"? That's my favourite...


Doomworld, I'm sure, has a standard for user intelligence level. People who use that smiley usually do not find themselves above or at that intelligence level.

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DaniJ said:

I think its about time that implementing ports addressed this issue in a more user-friendly manner. As a user, I could not care less whether me jumping onto a wall might "brake the map"; I should not be prevented from using a feature that was implemented despite that possibility. Allowing the mod author to "disable" a usability concession made in a port is quite simply bad design.

That makes some sense for maps that are designed for a specific port that offers possibilities like jumping, etc. However, the wad in question is intended for Boom-compatibles (for the most part), which implies that it is designed without jumping (etc.) in mind.

Or are you suggesting that anyone making a map nowadays, even a vanilla-compatible one, should design it with jumping (etc.) in mind?

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BOOM does not implement the preventative "feature" which stops me playing. My post is indeed targeted at ports which implement the MAPINFO disabling of features like jumping.

EDIT: Not that I ever play with jumping enabled I might add. Though I do admit I can't not use mouselook.

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Fisk said:

Doomworld, I'm sure, has a standard for user intelligence level. People who use that smiley usually do not find themselves above or at that intelligence level.


Cheers, here's the exception.
But it's already explained for me. Talk about the thread's real title, OK?

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DaniJ said:
Allowing the mod author to "disable" a usability concession made in a port is quite simply bad design.

On the contrary, because without such a possibility, you're not allowing the level designer to do something they might want to do in regard to their levels. An engine that doesn't have control lumps to define play features is more of a toy device than a game device. Not all level designers will use such control features, because some don't care how their levels are played, but others consider the possibility to define a set of playing features as important as monster placement, level layout or texture alignment, in the presentation of their design. In a well-designed engine, people who have a problem with the specified settings can use the disabled features by adding them through a command, which will override the control lump, which is overriding the user's base configuration files.

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ZDoom has a couple of cvars for jumping, plus the MAPINFO option. There are three possibilities:

sv_nojump and sv_allowjump both false: MAPINFO decides if jumping is possible (this is the default setting)
sv_nojump false, sv_allowjump true: jumping is possible (regardless of MAPINFO)
sv_nojump true: jumping is not possible (regardless of MAPINFO)

Crouching works the same way (sv_nocrouch and sv_allowcrouch).

So if people want to jump even in a map where jumping is disabled, they can. They don't have to edit the mod's MAPINFO lump to do so.

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Well now, that is very counter intuitive and not at all obvious to the user.

@myk We are basically saying the same thing but my posts are from the perspective of a port author on the implementation of the feature itself. I agree with you that it is a very useful feature and helps the mod author with QA. It is the implementation I consider lacking.

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DaniJ said:

Well now, that is very counter intuitive and not at all obvious to the user.



It's unintuitive because it's badly explained. The jump/crouch toggles are 2-bit fields in a larger flag word. The separate names are just legacy leftovers that need to be preserved for old config files. In the menu you get a much more meaningful presentation of them that's not unintuitive (meaning a 3 way switch specifying on, off and map default.)

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That makes more sense; those two cvars are basically combined to effect the three-state in-game toggle I had thought was missing. Good good.

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Well guys, I'm now enlighted enough. I'll use this srcipt in Five Places. Despite is has ZDooM effects, such as a lot of Planes, the gameplay will go with the "classic" style - at least in E1.

Now, any further thoughts about pcorf's last planned MegaWad would really update this thread. Keep it on!

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Cell said:Even 2002ADO wasn't such a hit.

Really? To me 2002ADO is to Doom1 what AV is to Doom2, the standard immortal classic megawad. :p

Thanks for making the secrets known, I've played through WoS 3 times and didn't spot all of them myself. I did however figure out what all the German stuff said in the secret level, Google translate ftw. Never managed to finish 1994 revisited on UV without cheating yet, maybe I should give that a try. :)

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