Do you hate it when...?

[Andrea Rovenski]

...You try to backup to get out of a fight, and can't. Then turn around to see nothing. Blink. And see a Spectre?!

...You watch a video of a noob who jumps up that step on TNT Map2 where you have to jump out the window to land on?!

...You run out of ammo as you exit the map, and the next map has monsters shooting at you at the start?!

...You die?!


Well, do you?!?!

[Creaphis]

Nope!

[Vaporizer]

.

[gggmork]

Nope, yeah!

[ArmouredBlood]

I hate getting stuck on mancubi when trying to run past them (goddamn you nochance, such a fun map but so frustrating at the same time -.-).

[printz]

Manhunt21 said:

...You try to backup to get out of a fight, and can't. Then turn around to see nothing. Blink. And see a Spectre?!

Demons and specters are the most annoying monsters in Doom. They're slow, tedious, waste your ammo, but are good enough to stand in your way and bite.

[hawkwind]

printz said:

Demons and specters are the most annoying monsters in Doom. They're slow, tedious, waste your ammo, but are good enough to stand in your way and bite.

If you don't have the berserk or chainsaw, yes. If I have either of those I just position myself in a corner and punch/rip away at them ... easy ... ;)

[Guest]

I love demons and spectres*






*provided they are used well. Which goes for just about any monster really.

[dew]

printz meant to say:
Barons are the most annoying monsters in Doom. They're slow, tedious, waste your ammo, but are good enough to stand in your way and bite.

oh preach on, brother! the last time they looked menacing was 1993. they're a laughable excuse for bosses, they give 'meat shield' a whole new meaning. even the 5-shot ssg dance from doom2 is boring, encountering them in doom without the bfg means an instant quit&forget to me. i hate having to burn away so much ammo on them, it's like a low threat, high boredom variant of two hell knights. at least hk's can flank you. barons should be renamed to bureaucrats of hell - slow, inefficient, nigh indestructible, always in your way. i bet the baron encounter sound is a recording of a real life bureaucrat after being asked to do something. one of the main reasons i avoid playing slaughter maps is my deathly fear that the next step after a room full of hell knights... i can't even type out the horror. i believe diablo2's izual is a parody on barons.

i don't like barons very much.

[40oz]

I like em...

Though I tend to learn to like a lot of the monsters that are generally hated. Lost souls and Pain Elementals, for example, are my favorite monsters.

[hawkwind]

dew said:

at least hk's can flank you.

... but so can barons ...

[Maes]

Revenants. Those fucking Revenants.

• They can creep in places where other "tall" monsters can't (their actual unit height is equal to the player's)
  
• They have a thin hitbox making them a pain to hit efficiently with scatterguns unless you almost get in melee range
  
• Their fireballs can actually do more damage than the HKs attack and are second only to cyberdemon rockets in terms of maximum damage potential (80 HP straight) from a single projectile, so getting one in the face is always a serious liability.
  
• They have homing rockets, which as we all know only Adam Hegyi can outrun. The rest of us get'em in da mutha fucking face. EVERY TIME. For 80 HP damage.
  
• They move fast and have an unusually low reaction time and rapid attack/counterattack sequence, making them dangerous in retaliation and ambushes. And OH GOD DON'T MAKE A SINGLE MISTAKE OR MISS ONE BULLET WHEN KEEPING THEM UNDER CHAINGUN CHA-CHA, or you get an 80 HP rocket in yo mutha fucking ugly mug!!!
  
• Their high damage potential makes them an insta-death threat if you're unarmored and equal or below 80 HP in health. Even archviles are less dangerous in that situation.
  
• They tend to win infighting vs other middle-tier monsters due to a combination of sheer aggression, faster reaction, high average damage and small hitbox, despite their relatively low HP. They can single-handedly defeat mancubi and even HK by pain abuse, and in packs they can overwhelm easily even barons and cyberdemons, thus leaving them among the main survivors of large fights, which you then have to deal with personally.
  

[Clonehunter]

I hate it when I am ambushed by a Combination of Mancubi and Arachnotrons, or being ambushed by a single group of just one those baddies. Fireballs and Plasma Guns are fucking hell.

[printz]

Maes said:

and even HK by pain abuse

I can't do the math here. The hell knights are healthier, more damaging in melee and less likely to flinch.

and in packs [...] and cyberdemons, thus leaving them among the main survivors of large fights, which you then have to deal with personally.

Again, I don't get it. Shouldn't they die like flies to 2-3 rocket explosions?

[Vaporizer]

.

[Mr. T]

SSG will cure all your Revenant woes

[Jodwin]

printz said:

I can't do the math here. The hell knights are healthier, more damaging in melee and less likely to flinch.

Maes is just being his usual self. Knights win revenants in pure melee almost every time. Revs are obviously likely winners if most or all of the fight is ranged, with the revenant being able to move freely, but other than that they haven't got a chance.

[Abyssalstudios1]

This is making me wonder what the reaction to the Revenant would be if they were a Realm 667 monster instead of an official ID monster.

[Andrea Rovenski]

Revenant = win?

[MSPaintR0cks]

I hate it when a group of monsters appears in front of me (especially with chaingunners) and I walk over a weapon pickup at the same time. Result = My doomguy happily changes his weapons and lies on the floor seconds after

[Vaporizer]

.

[Vaporizer]

.

[Reisal]

Flamethrower zombie (Realm667 monster) hiding conveniently around the corner and when I show up, I get incinerated and killed.

[Maes]

Jodwin said:

Revs are obviously likely winners if most or all of the fight is ranged, with the revenant being able to move freely, but other than that they haven't got a chance.

That. If the exchange is mostly fireballs, and you give the Revenant an edge of 2-3 rockets (considering it's not going to miss as often), and consider that it also has a damage edge in pure ranged, do the math and you'll see that it's not as a crazy occurence as you might think, I've seen it all the time.

Revenants have a weird balance vs other monsters, much like Towers in the game of Chess. One of them can hold its own, seriously damaging or even killing a moster of its own tier: even a HK that survives will usually be badly maimed.

Two revenants vs a Baron is pretty much like a Queen vs Two Towers: they have a marginal edge, and, once again, the very least the baron will come out seriously damaged.

Vs Cyberdemons, try pissing those revenant-filled ledges vs those Cyberdemons on pillars in Deus Vult: you'll see how Cybers will just scream in pain at the barrage of 80 HP rockets that will fuck them up real good.

[Abyssalstudios1]

I agree with Maes. Excellent analogy. However, please... call them Rooks. That's what they are.

[Xaser]

You call yourselves Rooks?

[Hellbent]

Maes said:

That. If the exchange is mostly fireballs, and you give the Revenant an edge of 2-3 rockets (considering it's not going to miss as often), and consider that it also has a damage edge in pure ranged, do the math and you'll see that it's not as a crazy occurence as you might think, I've seen it all the time.

Revenants have a weird balance vs other monsters, much like Towers in the game of Chess. One of them can hold its own, seriously damaging or even killing a moster of its own tier: even a HK that survives will usually be badly maimed.

Two revenants vs a Baron is pretty much like a Queen vs Two Towers: they have a marginal edge, and, once again, the very least the baron will come out seriously damaged.

Vs Cyberdemons, try pissing those revenant-filled ledges vs those Cyberdemons on pillars in Deus Vult: you'll see how Cybers will just scream in pain at the barrage of 80 HP rockets that will fuck them up real good.

I don't even know what you all are talking about, but I did a test wad of two revenants vs a baron--and put blocking lines between them so that they can't get into a fist fight. Baron won both times and it took me about 50 bullets to kill him after their fight was done.

EDIT:

Their high damage potential makes them an insta-death threat if you're unarmored and equal or below 80 HP in health. Even archviles are less dangerous in that situation.

I'm pretty sure Archvile's typically do 83 damage with their attack, making them more dangerous than revenants.

EDIT: lol! I spread them way apart and the revenants won handily. Only one of the revenants was engaged in battle. I'm not even sure the baron got a hit. It took me about 65 bullets to finish off the two revenants. IDDQD, IDFA chaingun close range down to 334 ammo.

[Maes]

Hellbent said:

EDIT: lol! I spread them way apart and the revenants won handily. Only one of the revenants was engaged in battle. I'm not even sure the baron got a hit. It took me about 65 bullets to finish off the two revenants. IDDQD, IDFA chaingun close range down to 334 ammo.

Q.E.D. ;-)

Also, you normally don't find as many archviles around as Revenants, do you?

Revenants are to be feared and respected, much more than other monsters of their tier, and not only by the player, it seems.

[dew]

Maes said:

Revenants are to be feared and respected, much more than other monsters of their tier, and not only by the player, it seems.

on the other hand a revenant is by far the easiest challenge for a berserk player. even imps are trickier to punch out.

[printz]

Hellbent said:

EDIT: I'm pretty sure Archvile's typically do 83 damage with their attack, making them more dangerous than revenants.

Their attack is very slow however, while a revenant only waits as much as a zombieman before shooting you (which is less than an imp does).

Also, I agree that berserk is a good choice. Until you get them to flinch, they won't ever fire at you from close range. Their pain chance is low enough, and it should only take three punches to bring them down. I needed to use berserk against some revenants in #afterlf.wad for example.