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Abyssalstudios1

Maps with good baron placement?

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I recall a significant amount of complaining in the past that Barons aren't very effective monsters. They're too tough for their damage output, and frequently serve as little more than meat shields.

So, apart from e1m8, what are some maps with good Baron placement? I'm starting to become better at placing them, but some maps for lessons on these tough guys would be cool to play.

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They're deadly as hell in close quarters, so long as the player has enough room to fight one fairly (being cheap is no fun). Can't think of any maps offhand, but they're there.

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scythe map10 was pretty good. Like xaser said, they make good close-combat minibosses, giving a longer fight than an equal amount of hell knights, which is technically why hell knights are considered better in more open maps.

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Doom 2 map08 mainly because I like how monster infighting in that room where all 15 barons gang-bang that one cyberdemon(although sometimes the cyberdemon kills them all).

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Just like was said, use the barons when:
- you need hitpoints, against cybers/arachnotrons/mancubi
- you need hitpoints, against the player.
Ask yourself: what if baron is replaced by two hell knights OR what if baron is replaced by a single hell knight. If one of the above scenarios is possible, it should work better with HKs.
- at the beginning of a map you need a monster with hitpoints so that the player does not kill it (not enough ammo), you encourage the player to run and seek for ammo

Now, to the examples. I browsed through my demos list, I thought it easier to recall examples from my own experience. Errr. Only two examples? my bad memory...
MM2 MAP29, two barons, things 114 and 115. No space for 4 hell knights. Placing barons allowed me to discover a risky way of killing the cyber behind them and record what I believe is one of my best Max demos: wait for infighting, run past the bridge, stand behind the cyber and kill it with 2 BFG shots. The hell knights would die too easily to make it possible, with barons (800-1000 HP as they sometimes had fought already) you should be able to do it by the skin of your teeth.
CChest3 MAP12, a baron (UV only) and a hell knight, things 243 and 419. You take a lift and arrive in a new location. You have just enough time for 9 ssg shots to kill them, otherwise they squeeze you. If you run too much forward to gain space, 2 lost souls are released making things worse for the player.

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Browsing through the different maps in community wads such as Community Chests I, II and III will give you a good idea of how best to use and how not to use Barons effectively. Also, do look through a few Ultimate Doom wads, as in these cases the Baron and Cacodemon are the only 2 feasable mid-difficulty selections, and as such become particularly reliant on good placement in order for the map to work properly. It may also serve you well to think about in which cases, if any, a Hell Knight should have been used instead of a Baron.

To top off and partially summarize vdgg's post, the Baron's greatest asset for mapping purposes is its hitpoints (I was actually going to mention MM2 map29 as well!), and should never really be used in a situation where this asset is disregarded or thrown to waste. Here's a list of situations in which they should be used:

  • To slow the player down, who then becomes vulnerable to flanking/advancing hordes of monsters;
  • To push the player back where sufficient firepower isn't present;
  • In tight places where sufficient firepower is present (eg. Plasma Rifle/BFG). Other situations should probaqbly incorporate Hell Knights instead.
  • At points of intersection (the blood creek area of e4m8);
  • As an infighting utility, allowing passage between monsters or the elimination of lesser creatures.
In other words, they should almost always be used in conjunction with other types of monster, or at least alongside other Barons (disregarding point 3). E1M8 might be an exception because the player probably sucks at this stage, and couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. ...Here's a list of ways in which Barons should not be used:
  • By themselves, given ample space. This is where combating one of the least imposing enemies becomes tedious and bothersome;
  • Ledges/cages containing Barons, while sometimes effective, can waste time when trying to achieve 100% kills; particularly from a distance;
  • In any way, at all, unless it complies with the points made in the previous list. Hell Knights are always the better substitute.
The Baron of Hell is a very niche monster. Use it sparingly, and never superfluously. If you're looking to make a map for Ultimate Doom, consider using points #3, 4 and 5 from the first list in particular, as these are cases in which the Baron probably trumps the Hell Knight.

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I just played through map 21 of Momento Mori 2 and thought the part near the end with the Baron of Hell and the Archvile was pretty cool and creative. So I'd count that as good Baron placement. :P

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